What is the true origin of Dinarization/Flat-Occiput, and where does it occur at high rates?

[Voyt]

That's exactly my puzzle, so thank you for posting. Some thoughts.

We are talking about Dinarization that has the following treats brachycephaly+flat occiput (steephead).

The old anthropologist called it Dinarization because it occurred mostly there and may be they also thought it had some kind of connection with Dinaric people.

IMO it has no direct connection to Dinarization it occurs and occurs anywhere world wide, regarding Europe from England to Poland and the Balkan.

It has been a speciale 'trademark' or 'stigma' of the Bell Beakers. Some even stated that the dominant phenotype of the Bell Beaker was Dinarid. I translate it as the Bell Beakers have undergone a process of Dinarization. But is has occurred in more times and places.

But what is the key to it? I corresponded with another 'geek' about dinarization and our conclusion was: 'it's always tied with hightening of the stature'. I guess this is the key and this can have different roots from better living conditions to sexual selection or both.

But what about the idea that dinarization has a connection with hightening....!!!???

Possible, but do Balts and Dutch have high rates of flat-occiput then? As far as i know they don't

[Folcwalding]

Minor. But there is a connection with tallnes. The Bell Beakers were tall because of the Steppe (Yamna) influence. They were known to be tall. The North Dutch are the tallest people of Europe, this may have a genetic connection with Bell Beaker (/ Yamna influence at least some Steppe type that influenced the North Dutch population). There are some with a 'Dinarid' phenotype (I'm one of those). But it's a minority. No data. The second tallest people are the people from the Dinaric Alps. Member LukaszM from Poland has also a steephead, and the old Polish anthropologist mention dinarization with regard to the NE European population.

So when the conditions are there this can cause a Dinarid phenotype. You see that the long legs and arms as well as a high vault are connected to Dinarization.

Are you tall?

[Folcwalding]

And there is a possible connection with status and sexual selection:

https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.c...aker-folk.html

Meanwhile in some regions the preferences have changed Voyt

[Voyt]

Minor. But there is a connection with tallnes. The Bell Beakers were tall because of the Steppe (Yamna) influence. They were known to be tall. The North Dutch are the tallest people of Europe, this may have a genetic connection with Bell Beaker (/ Yamna influence at least some Steppe type that influenced the North Dutch population). There are some with a 'Dinarid' phenotype (I'm one of those). But it's a minority. No data. The second tallest people are the people from the Dinaric Alps. Member LukaszM from Poland has also a steephead, and the old Polish anthropologist mention dinarization with regard to the NE European population.

So when the conditions are there this can cause a Dinarid phenotype. You see that the long legs and arms as well as a high vault are connected to Dinarization.

Are you tall?

No I'm average height, 5'10"
my occiput is fairly flat though
my wingspan is longer than my height


not sure about your theory tbh, seeing as Albanians and Armenians have high rates of flat occiput and they are shorter than the average european

[Folcwalding]

No I'm average height, 5'10"
my occiput is fairly flat though
my wingspan is longer than my height


not sure about your theory tbh, seeing as Albanians and Armenians have high rates of flat occiput and they are shorter than the average european

I see that some have had likewise thoughts previously:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-armenoid-race

[Folcwalding]

This from E.A. Hooton's Up from the Ape (New York, 1947) and from an earlier post here.. He describes the dominant Bell Beaker type. In fact he describes dinarization. But he stays in the paradigma of some 'racial mix' of "Nordic' and 'Alpines' as if that were 'races' in stead of phenotypes....

I guess dinarization is a better description for what has happened with the Bell Beaker phenotype than a supposed 'racial mixing', that's IMO fully outdated.

'British Bronze Age (Beaker type)

Distinguishing Characters:
A. Head form: more massive and globular, less pointed than Dinaric
B. Face form: broader in malar region, squarer, gonial angles more marked
C. Nose form: fleshier than the ordinary Dinaric nose, shorter
D. Skin color: usually florid or ruddy
E. Hair color: oftener reddish
F. Body build: heavier and broader than average Dinaric(?)

In the Bronze Age, or just before the introduction of bronze, Britain
was invaded by tall, massive roundheads who seem to have come from
about the same area near the mouth of the Rhine and northwestern
Germany from which the later Anglo-Saxons sailed. (years and years before Olalde- Finn Probably other
brachycephals came to England later during this period, but the custom
of cremation obscures their racial affinities. British anthropologists
have long recognized a contemporary English and Scottish type as
probably surviving from these Bronze Age invaders or as an effect of
recombination of the same subracial elements.


It is tall, heavy-boned, weighty and, in middle and advanced years,
obese. The skin is usually florid or beefy, the eyes blue or light
mixed. Sometimes, however, and especially in Shetland, and in parts of
North England, and Scotland, and Ireland, the hair and skin are dark.
The head is massive, brachycephalic and sometimes rather flattened
behind. If the high, pointed Armenoid-Dinaric brachycephaly exist in
this type, it is uncommon. Brow-ridges are heavy, malars prominent,
and the face rather broad, but not short. The nose is usually long,
wide, and convex-decidely beaky. Beard and body hair are strongly
developed.

It has ordinarily been considered an Alpine-Nordic cross, and it is
clear enough that both of these elements frequently enter into its
composition. However, the nasal convexity and occasionally flattened
occiput perhaps qualify the type more correctly as Dinaric. This is
the opinion of Coon, who points out that the blend could not have been
formed in situ in Britain because of the absence of any antecedent
Alpine type that is an essential ingredient. As a matter of fact, Coon
thinks that the brachycephlic element in the John Bull type is closer
to the ancient massive Borreby type that the supposedly reduced Alpine
derivative.

If the Dinaric theory of British Bronze Age origins is correct, the
type harks back in respect of its nasal convexity to some ultimately
Middle or Near Eastern element, much adultered and modified by
admixture with western European types. As a matter of fact, probably
some of the so-called Bronze Age types are merely crosses of later
Nordic longheaded blonds with the pure Alpines(?).

The planoccipital component in the Beaker Folk is often but erroneously regarded as a Dinaric property and hence pushing the Dinaric element to the foreground, despite that the issues are complex; the large, rugged cranio-facial aspects and the scheme of pigmentation don't gell well together with what is known of the generic Dinaric, which in itself is a moot point as it's ample variegated manifestation in Europe and the fact that European Dinarics compared to their Asian counterparts are larged headed, gives good reason to assume that what goes for the proper Dinaric in Europe is none less than a representative of the Anatolid race, while others are special blends or native European races undergoing independently from any genetic flow a process of dinarization.

So the descriptions could be accurat. But every time the old anthropologist guys are making it connected to the Dinaric area in stead of seeing 'Dinarization' as a proces that can occur with obviously the same kind of conditions in several times and places they are not bound to one kind of people or place!!!

source

[Voyt]

In the Bronze Age, or just before the introduction of bronze, Britain
was invaded by tall, massive roundheads who seem to have come from
about the same area near the mouth of the Rhine and northwestern
Germany from which the later Anglo-Saxons sailed. (years and years before Olalde- Finn Probably other
brachycephals came to England later during this period, but the custom
of cremation obscures their racial affinities. British anthropologists
have long recognized a contemporary English and Scottish type as
probably surviving from these Bronze Age invaders or as an effect of
recombination of the same subracial elements.


It is tall, heavy-boned, weighty and, in middle and advanced years,
obese. The skin is usually florid or beefy, the eyes blue or light
mixed. Sometimes, however, and especially in Shetland, and in parts of
North England, and Scotland, and Ireland, the hair and skin are dark.
The head is massive, brachycephalic and sometimes rather flattened
behind. If the high, pointed Armenoid-Dinaric brachycephaly exist in
this type, it is uncommon. Brow-ridges are heavy, malars prominent,
and the face rather broad, but not short. The nose is usually long,
wide, and convex-decidely beaky. Beard and body hair are strongly
developed.

It has ordinarily been considered an Alpine-Nordic cross, and it is
clear enough that both of these elements frequently enter into its
composition. However, the nasal convexity and occasionally flattened
occiput perhaps qualify the type more correctly as Dinaric. This is
the opinion of Coon, who points out that the blend could not have been
formed in situ in Britain because of the absence of any antecedent
Alpine type that is an essential ingredient. As a matter of fact, Coon
thinks that the brachycephlic element in the John Bull type is closer
to the ancient massive Borreby type that the supposedly reduced Alpine
derivative.

hmm, interesting, would you say this Dinarized Germanic type fits my father?
https://i.lensdump.com/i/iu6GAx.png
He seems to share pretty much all of the features listed. At first I thought his phenotype was merely influenced by "Dinaric" intermixing in the Balkans, but he doesn't look like a typical Dinaric for sure.
Could it just be that "Dinaricization" is the result of a warrior culture? Illyrians, Germanics, and Caucasid peoples all have a tribalistic warrior culture.

[Kamal900]

Reminded me of my father, rofl.

[Voyt]

Reminded me of my father, rofl.

Who, mine?

[Folcwalding]

hmm, interesting, would you say this Dinarized Germanic type fits my father?
https://i.lensdump.com/i/iu6GAx.png
He seems to share pretty much all of the features listed. At first I thought his phenotype was merely influenced by "Dinaric" intermixing in the Balkans, but he doesn't look like a typical Dinaric for sure.
Could it just be that "Dinaricization" is the result of a warrior culture? Illyrians, Germanics, and Caucasid peoples all have a tribalistic warrior culture.

Yes there is resemblance.
But those labels like Germanic etc I don't share. I guess dinarazation occurred in different people. We don't know the circumstances is developed and cultivated. I don't see a direct connection with a warrior cult.
Some suggest: 'dinaric' complex could be linked to a limited (in number) special result of crossing between high statured dolichomorphic/dolichocephalic type with an high-statured robust brachycephalic type. May be.....