What is your take on the miscegenation in 'Lord of the Rings'?

[Arrow Cross]

Here we go. Even on forums where the posters generally agree on most topics, I like to create polls that will be debated. First in the series, we deal with J.R.R. Tolkien's 'Lord of the Rings', a much-popular fantasy setting in which several different species coexist (or don't) with humanity on a continent called 'Middle Earth'. One of these species - inspired from Northen European folklore - called the 'Elves' are slim, agile, long-eared creatures with unlimited natural lifespan - I hardly need to describe them. According to Tolkien, these creatures can succesfully interbreed with Humans, though it only happened 3 times in history, these stories are heavily promoted and popularized in his books(LotR and The Silmarils) in the forms of "heroic" inter-species love stories, e.g.: Aragorn and Arwen.

Now, it is obviously "just fantasy", but so is anything that comes out of Hollywood, regardless of the genre, these stories can have great impact on the targeted audience, especially if it's the youth, as in this case. Peter Jackson's famous and well-made movie of the same title further emphasized and heroized this love story and its meaning: your blood doesn't matter, your culture doesn't matter, your traditions don't matter, only love matters.

The paralels between this and real-life miscegenation are quite obvious, skin colour is meaningless in this context. And so is the agenda which it advances, love without responsibility towards one's own blood. If some people hold such stories in high regard as part of the Aryan culture, then we're rotten and doomed indeed.

What do you think? Elaborate your choices.

[The Dragonslayer]

I had never really thought about that before when watching it. You've got a good point. It could definitely be seen as an "interracial" type of romance. It does seem to say that nothing should stand in the way of love. I'll be interested in seeing what others have to say about this. I've got think more about this before I say much more.

[Stormraaf]

It might be worthwhile to keep in mind that Tolkien did include a problem based on their racial differences in Lord of the Rings - that Arwen will outlive Aragorn and their child, since elves are immortal and humans are not. One of the arguments that pro-miscegenation multi-culturists deny or ignore in real life (IRL) is that there really are problems with mixing.

That Aragorn and Arwen were of different race did irk me, and after reading Arrow Cross's post I do agree that it represents miscegenation, but I'm not so sure it promoted pro-miscegenation concepts IRL. After all, it does seem as if the Elf race in LotR were designed to be liked by Europeans, which you can't say of most other races IRL.

[The Dragonslayer]

I'll be honest that I didn't think about the difference between humans and elves in Lord of the Rings. I guess because they looked the same except for the pointy ears.

[SouthernBoy]

Yes, it is miscegenation, but it is a lovely story and has a good influence.

I picked the second choice. I think it's benign.

[Arrow Cross]

Many things look similar, but are extremely different at the core. If we look at the issue from an "Elven perspective", it's quite obvious that it's even a worse dysgenical move than a White human miscegenating with a Black one.

Yeah, fantasy...but I don't like sick fairy tales.

[Sigurd]

Tolkien had several counts of Human-Elf relationships, also in the Silmarillion. It should be noted that he included the difficulties faced by either of these groups, and that generally the elvish side of things didn't exactly approve of the coupling. Also note that once the mortal blood gets in there, the kids are no longer immortal.

What may also be noted is that Elrond explicitly stated that he would not give his daughter to no less human, unless he were the King of Arnor and Gondor --- as such, the eventual permission for Aragorn to marry Arwen was given on the basis of his standing and would have been refused if he were merely a human.

One should also bear in mind that Aragorn comes from the line of Numenorian kings, who are directly descended from a human-elf coupling some approx. 6,000 years before the storyline of Lord of the Rings.

Whether it should be viewed as miscegenation is a completely different matter. As I stated elsewhere, Tolkien modelled the elven languages on Finnish and Welsh - as such, we are talking about two other people's within the larger Central & Northern European concept.

He should also be seen to have modelled the different types of elves upon them: Only one type of elves have light hair pigment, the other have dark hair pigment, it is stated so explicitly in the Silmarillion.

As such - maybe the "high elven language" of Quenya being descended from these shows that these are the more distant, less seen and more removed Finns. The other groups, who should mainly speak Sindarin as their language of discourse would then be the Celts.

In that way, a human-elf mixing would be not much different than someone of mixed Celto-Germanic heritage, such as a Welsh-English coupling. It should as such me seen as meta-ethnic mixing, and maybe not as miscegenation per se?!

If not, then it could be seen as one of those myths that feature in any type of mythology: Mortal-immortal love. The elves are after all pretty much quasi-divine beings aren't they? It'd even explain other things such as the elven rings being three - and let's face it, Galadriel's mirror is a carbon copy of Mimir's Well - you fall into it for a small sacrifice and you gain wisdom and foresight.

Tolkien had his very subtle ways. He was far from being a racist, but there is some inherently folkish feeling to his books and his characters: For the most part, his main and good characters are pretty much all white men, as should be noticed. On top of that, many folk groups were modelled on the Germanics he so loved: The riders of Rohan are ultimately answering the question of: What would have happened if the Anglo-Saxons had arrived at Hastings on horseback?

He also always had his subtle ways about commenting on issues going on in the world in his free time. When they were all conversing about the problems of Africa, he - as a person born in South Africa - would always point out "I was born on that continent, and am of the opinion that ..."

Don't read things into Tolkien that aren't there, because even though he always stated that there is no allegory: He had his influences and ideas, and they are more than just a little evident in his books. And at that, I do not think that he supported miscegenation.

At best, the whole Aragorn-Arwen thing being eventually allowed by Elrond would be something like --- "My girl ain't marrying an African-American, unless he is the President of the United States". If Obama then would have, after attaining presidency-elect opted to go for a white wife, then her father would have had to keep to that promise which was thought to be impossible.

And again - look back at the "Once a drop of mortal blood is in there, the immortality fades". It does sort of remind of "Once a drop of foreign-race blood is in there, your kids will always look 'a little exotic'". Get it?

[HvS]

I have to add something to this serious discussion .
There is NO kind of propaganda in Tolkien's books, especially about such irrational problem as interracial couples.
You may try to find many plots, that seem to be inspired by history, politics or personal ideological views of Tolkien. But he announced it plenty of times, in different interviews or so, that he wanted to create a brand new world of Middlearth, and he wishes not to compare anything from those tales to our world. Any compartments of the Rohirrim to the Anglo-Saxon, or Sauron to Hitler, or the main conflict to the Great War are just unfounded.

I think we should leave Master Tolkien in peace and let him sleep well

[Arrow Cross]

At best, the whole Aragorn-Arwen thing being eventually allowed by Elrond would be something like --- "My girl ain't marrying an African-American, unless he is the President of the United States". If Obama then would have, after attaining presidency-elect opted to go for a white wife, then her father would have had to keep to that promise which was thought to be impossible.

And again - look back at the "Once a drop of mortal blood is in there, the immortality fades". It does sort of remind of "Once a drop of foreign-race blood is in there, your kids will always look 'a little exotic'".

That's true. However, it's still miscegenation by all means, because the word miscegenation refers to biology, not symbolism.

I'm not suggesting Tolkien had quasi-Jewish cosmopolitan intentions, but their agenda was certainly popular after the Nazi defeat in World War Two. I'm merely discussing the story's influence here, which kinda makes me want to vomit.

Also, while you might philosophize on this to such lengths and see symbols into it, the average, young and modern White nerd will most probably notice the free love aspect first...and nothing second.
People are stupid, ignorant sheep.

[Arrow Cross]

I have to add something to this serious discussion .
There is NO kind of propaganda in Tolkien's books, especially about such irrational problem as interracial couples.
You may try to find many plots, that seem to be inspired by history, politics or personal ideological views of Tolkien. But he announced it plenty of times, in different interviews or so, that he wanted to create a brand new world of Middlearth, and he wishes not to compare anything from those tales to our world. Any compartments of the Rohirrim to the Anglo-Saxon, or Sauron to Hitler, or the main conflict to the Great War are just unfounded.

I think we should leave Master Tolkien in peace and let him sleep well

Yeah, that's what he said. It certainly takes a great deal of naivity to believe it though.