Is social democracy essentially conservative? (At least with a small 'c')

[Tooting Carmen]

I've been thinking about this. Many right-wingers (principally in the Anglo-American sense) don't realise that social democracy, when done properly, e.g. in Attlee's Britain, is essentially conservative (with a small 'c' at least). It revolves around community, stability and contentment. It is NOT based on revolution, permanent change and individualism.

[The Lawspeaker]

The modern version is essentially Marxism mixed with capitalism but the old, grassroots kind of social democracy, is indeed small-c conservative as it rejects both the ravages of an economic liberalism gone out of control and Marxism.

[Tooting Carmen]

The modern version is essentially Marxism mixed with capitalism but the old, grassroots kind of social democracy, is indeed small-c conservative as it rejects both the ravages of an economic liberalism gone out of control and Marxism.

Well don't forget Marx himself admired capitalism for being revolutionary and for overturning traditional cultures and ways of doing things. The thing is that, due to his bizarre and teleological outlook, he thought there would be a natural 'progression' from capitalism to socialism, just as there had been (at least in the West) from feudalism to capitalism. In fact, it is a huge mistake to think that Marxism and free-market capitalism are 'polar opposites', for both are essentially universalistic, materalistic and anti-environment in their outlook. (To be sure, not all forms of socialism are, but pure Marxism certainly is).

[The Lawspeaker]

Well don't forget Marx himself admired capitalism for being revolutionary and for overturning traditional cultures and ways of doing things. The thing is that, due to his bizarre and teleological outlook, he thought there would be a natural 'progression' from capitalism to socialism, just as there had been (at least in the West) from feudalism to capitalism. In fact, it is a huge mistake to think that Marxism and free-market capitalism are 'polar opposites', for both are essentially universalistic, materalistic and anti-environment in their outlook. (To be sure, not all forms of socialism are, but pure Marxism certainly is).

I would say that capitalism and Marxism are actually, in reality, the same thing: under capitalism you get a small class who gets to control the entire economical and political life and under Marxism you get a small class which gets to control the entire economical and political life. It's just that most Marxists are too stupid to see it. The rest is pure window-dressing.

[Tooting Carmen]

I would say that capitalism and Marxism are actually, in reality, the same thing: under capitalism you get a small class who gets to control the entire economical and political life and under Marxism you get a small class which gets to control the entire economical and political life. It's just that most Marxists are too stupid to see it.

And so are most free-marketeers. While in the short-term, free-market policies may indeed boost competition and bring new entrants into a market, in the long-term they ultimately produce cartels and monopolies, as the wealthiest and most successful/powerful either kill off competitors or buy them out. (An ironic example of this is one of Mrs Thatcher's key reforms, which was abolishing limits on the amount one individual or company could own of the private media, leading to the fatuous situation we have now where Rupert Murdoch owns 40% of our media!)

[The Lawspeaker]

And so are most free-marketeers. While in the short-term, free-market policies may indeed boost competition and bring new entrants into a market, in the long-term they ultimately produce cartels and monopolies, as the wealthiest and most successful/powerful either kill off competitors or buy them out. (An ironic example of this is one of Mrs Thatcher's key reforms, which was abolishing limits on the amount one individual or company could own of the private media, leading to the fatuous situation we have now where Rupert Murdoch owns 40% of our media!)

Exactly. And Britain is now still in "Thatcher mode", so to speak so we can only fear the worst for their future. But it will not be our problem.

[Tooting Carmen]

Exactly. And Britain is now still in "Thatcher mode", so to speak so we can only fear the worst for their future. But it will not be our problem.

One reform I would like to see would be for the main parties here to change their names to more suit the modern world and their actual policies. Thus, the Conservative Party should become the "Economic Libertarian Party", the Labour Party the "Social Democratic and Identity Politics Party" (only saying that partly in jest), and as for the Lib Dems goodness knows!

Anyway, I do think that there is a blindness among many right-wingers across the West - they claim to reject and despise the universalism and belief in revolution and permanent change implicit in Marxism, yet fail to observe these same tendencies in (free-market) capitalism. By contrast, IMO social democracy largely encompasses the best of all worlds - it still has the innovation and prosperity produced by markets, while ensuring good quality and free or cheap public services and welfare for everyone, as well as providing a balance between the common good and individual freedom.

[The Lawspeaker]

One reform I would like to see would be for the main parties here to change their names to more suit the modern world and their actual policies. Thus, the Conservative Party should become the "Economic Libertarian Party", the Labour Party the "Social Democratic and Identity Politics Party" (only saying that partly in jest), and as for the Lib Dems goodness knows!

Anyway, I do think that there is a blindness among many right-wingers across the West - they claim to reject and despise the universalism and belief in revolution and permanent change implicit in Marxism, yet fail to observe these same tendencies in (free-market) capitalism. By contrast, IMO social democracy largely encompasses the best of all worlds - it still has the innovation and prosperity produced by markets, while ensuring good quality and free or cheap public services and welfare for everyone, as well as providing a balance between the common good and individual freedom.

I agree but social democracy needs to be paired with a certain nationalism (the nation as a National Home) and conservative morals. Unfortunately, we now see how social democrats have been utterly subverted (and the same applies to the Right).

[Tooting Carmen]

I agree but social democracy needs to be paired with a certain nationalism (the nation as a National Home) and conservative morals. Unfortunately, we now see how social democrats have been utterly subverted (and the same applies to the Right).

The problem is both on the Left and the Right there are too many people who wish to throw out babies with the bathwater, without realising the aspects of capitalism in the former's case and socialism (or rather social democracy) in the latter's case that are actually beneficial and even conducive to their own supposed beliefs.

It is high time someone stood up and proclaimed that social democracy is ultimately the best system for people of ALL backgrounds and ACROSS the political spectrum. (I too dislike the type of left-wing thinking which revolves around privileging supposedly 'victim' groups over supposedly 'oppressor' groups). The whole point about social democracy is that it accepts that there are going to be differences in wealth and success between people, but that they mustn't reach such an extreme and debilitating extent and that, at the end of the day, a comprehensive system of public services and welfare is for EVERYONE's benefit.

[Tooting Carmen]

i love you lily, but i have to stop you right there...

First of all, I am not Lily. Secondly, the fact you cannot apparently distinguish social democracy from totalitarian Communism precisely exemplifies what I am talking about. The post-war European social democracies were actually very successful and had very high rates of growth that would be unthinkable nowadays.