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Thread: Ulster-Scots - a people and a language

  1. #41
    Veteran Member The Lawspeaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    Well of course they didn't because they haven't had control of their country. If Ireland didn't have British interference they would have developed their own law and structures obviously. The Brehon laws were quite advanced for their time and Ireland was going along nicely pre-Viking years but it was not to be. They were invaded and treated as a colony by Britain and ended up losing a significant amount of their population. I think even British acknowledge the damage they did to Ireland. The Irish population was completely shanked by the British and this is being kind. Flight of the Earls, Penal Laws, removing food during the Famine etc. Not sure what favours they did the Irish?

    How would Ireland have their own laws after been governed by Britain for centuries?

    I don't hate Britain at all and history is history and one can't live in the past but I don't know how anyone can look at this and can say Ireland benefited from being part of the British Empire? You would really have to be one-eyed to say otherwise.
    What may have been is not what is now. Ireland doesn't operate on the Brehon laws but on British-inherited common law. Its system of government is a modified version of the Westminster system - not some tribal chieftains. Britain may have done a lot of bad things in Ireland, the system they introduced and which, up to a degree, still serves the Irish state today is not one of them.



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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawspeaker View Post
    What may have been is not what is now. Ireland doesn't operate on the Brehon laws but on British-inherited common law. Its system of government is a modified version of the Westminster system - not some tribal chieftains. Britain may have done a lot of bad things in Ireland, the system they introduced and which, up to a degree, still serves the Irish state today is not one of them.
    It still doesn't change the fact that it was introduced due to colonialism and that the Irish would have done better without Britain. I'm sure you wouldn't have wished for the Netherlands to have been colonised by Spain for centuries? Of course this thread wouldn't exist if Ireland wasn't colonised as there would be no Ulster Scots.

  3. #43
    Veteran Member The Lawspeaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    It still doesn't change the fact that it was introduced due to colonialism and that the Irish would have done better without Britain. I'm sure you wouldn't have wished for the Netherlands to have been colonised by Spain for centuries? Of course this thread wouldn't exist if Ireland wasn't colonised as there would be no Ulster Scots.
    Thankfully we weren't so they didn't leave much of an imprint but the French were here for 20 years - we now use a modified form of the Code Napoleon. Our Parliament is one of the continental model instead one based on mediaeval councils. Ireland was taken over by the British and this shows itself in the structures of their society. It is what it is and it's a very workable system.



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  4. #44
    Veteran Member TheOldNorth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    Ireland had their own ancient system called the Brehon Laws. They would have developed themselves without English interference. If anyone reads Irish history Britain was a hindrance to Ireland and did not help with any development. They put all industry in the north of the country. Even when Ireland left the UK Ireland was forced to pay a portion of British Imperial debt. Ireland didn't benefit from British colonialism and any neutral reading Irish history would have to agree.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Irish_law
    yeah during the dark ages, those early years between the fall of western Rome and the rise of the vikings, the Irish where western europes greatest scholars, who christianized the scottish and english, as well as writing great works such as the Brehon laws and Lebor na Gabala Erinn. In fact many Carolingian and anglo-saxon priest went to Ireland to study.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The Ulster-Scots are descended from the Lowland Scots, who are in turn largely of Anglo-Saxon derivation. Thus very Germanic to be honest.
    I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.
    they may have some germanic, but I'd say they're mostly Pictish and Cumbric in DNA, which would explain the north irish connections too, as the Picts invaded part of northern ireland and set up there own kingdom there once, and they both have at least some Gaelic, also north irish slavers likely took a lot of cumbric women as concubines

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.
    Well of course they are also mixed with pre-AS natives, but it is a fact that the Lowland Scots are primarily derived from Anglo-Saxons. It's a historical fact, also evidenced by their languange, "Scots" -- which is similar to English and derived from the early Anglo-Saxon settlers.
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    Veteran Member TheOldNorth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Well of course they are also mixed with pre-AS natives, but it is a fact that the Lowland Scots are primarily derived from Anglo-Saxons. It's a historical fact, also evidenced by their languange, "Scots" -- which is similar to English and derived from the early Anglo-Saxon settlers.
    just because a people speak a language does not make them automatically related to people who speak sister languages. As I'm sure you know many African and native american tribes have completely shifted to speaking one European language or another. The Scots have a similar predicament, they speak Germanic for the same reason modern Irish do, because it was and is a highly influential language family. The Scots themselves are more Celtic in blood then Anglo-Saxon even if you account for the Celtic admixture in Anglo-Saxons, I believe it is likely the case that Scots spread as a sort of trade language, and Gaelic remained relevant in the highlands till recently do to their isolation in the highlands

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Well of course they are also mixed with pre-AS natives, but it is a fact that the Lowland Scots are primarily derived from Anglo-Saxons. It's a historical fact, also evidenced by their languange, "Scots" -- which is similar to English and derived from the early Anglo-Saxon settlers.
    Also from Frisians and Welsh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    I don't think this part is true. The territory they come from is ex-Dal Riata territory which had a heavy Irish settlement. I think most genetics papers show the western Lowlands to be the part of Scotland that's genetically closest to Ireland (though maybe some northern parts are closer). The most Anglo-Saxon part of Scotland would be the eastern Lowlands, but they're likely also more native than Anglo-Saxon.
    This is an old comment, but it deserves recognition. Mingle is absolutely right about the western Scottish Lowlands, which have both Briton input and Gaelic input, a double dose of Celtic. The eastern Scottish Lowlands have more Anglo-Saxon input.

    My "anthropological pet peeve" is when perfect strangers, from foreign countries, tell people with Appalachian roots that they're really Scottish instead of Irish as if that common knowledge and conventional wisdom holds true for all people in that region. I descend from Native Irish (not just Ulster Scottish), and I'm talking about people with stereotypical Irish surnames from the South. My last immigrant ancestor was an Irishman who came here in 1825(?). None of my great-grandparents were 100% Scots-Irish, so there's a bit of false romanticism in much of this.

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