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Thread: What Ashkenazi Jewish group is genetically the most European and Middle Eastern?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoEuropean View Post
    That's all anecdotal also with zero context.
    The study samples are anecdotal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pine View Post
    Why do you keep answering by intuition when the data is out there? Again, you're wrong.
    Data offers a small window not a definitive view.

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    What about Lithuanian Karaites? There's only a few hundred of them left, but Coon wrote this about them (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII20.htm):

    Karaites living outside of the Crimea, however, have failed to preserve their characteristic metrical position. Those settled in the Egyptian Delta[166] have a mean cephalic index of 74.6 and are little different from other Egyptian Jews, while Karaites of Lithuania[167] have a mean cephalic index of 81, a stature of 162 cm., and 55 per cent of fair skin color and an equal amount of mixed eye hues. Over 40 per cent have also brown or light brown hair color. Concave noses, the antithesis of a Jewish condition, are found among 50 per cent, while nasal convexity is almost entirely absent. The Lithuanian Karaites have apparently been thoroughly mixed with Neo-Danubian peoples either locally or in transit; their stature level is very low, but this may be accounted for environmentally. On the basis of available data, there is little to connect the Lithuanian Karaites with those of the Crimea, except their retention of brunet pigmentation in nearly half the group.

    That's insane that 50% of Jews would have a concave nose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ymyyakhtakh View Post
    What about Lithuanian Karaites? There's only a few hundred of them left, but Coon wrote this about them (https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII20.htm):

    Karaites living outside of the Crimea, however, have failed to preserve their characteristic metrical position. Those settled in the Egyptian Delta[166] have a mean cephalic index of 74.6 and are little different from other Egyptian Jews, while Karaites of Lithuania[167] have a mean cephalic index of 81, a stature of 162 cm., and 55 per cent of fair skin color and an equal amount of mixed eye hues. Over 40 per cent have also brown or light brown hair color. Concave noses, the antithesis of a Jewish condition, are found among 50 per cent, while nasal convexity is almost entirely absent. The Lithuanian Karaites have apparently been thoroughly mixed with Neo-Danubian peoples either locally or in transit; their stature level is very low, but this may be accounted for environmentally. On the basis of available data, there is little to connect the Lithuanian Karaites with those of the Crimea, except their retention of brunet pigmentation in nearly half the group.

    That's insane that 50% of Jews would have a concave nose.
    I've seen Crimean Karaite DNA results (some with ancestry from Lithuania), and they're the most MENA Jews in Europe - maybe more MENA than all Western Jews (Libyan Jews and Syrian Jews included). All this "concave nose" pseudo-anthro scribbles from over a century ago is utterly meaningless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pine View Post
    I've seen Crimean Karaite DNA results (some with ancestry from Lithuania), and they're the most MENA Jews in Europe - maybe more MENA than all Western Jews (Libyan Jews and Syrian Jews included). All this "concave nose" pseudo-anthro scribbles from over a century ago is utterly meaningless.
    Damn even more outlying than Lybian/Syrian Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoEuropean View Post
    I would say the upper middle class Ashkenazis that largely assimilated in Germany would be the most European. And most Middle Eastern probably any strict Haredi community.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pine View Post
    As usual, you're wrong.
    I believe the Global25 sample for Ashkenazi_Germany comes Yekke Jews in Israel. Perhaps from a kibbutzim founded by German Jews like this one: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafetz_Haim). Descendants of Assimilationists would naturally not be included.

    From initial settlement until widespread assimilation in the 19th century, gentile gene flow into the German Jewish population was virtually non-existent. While in 19th to early 20th century Eastern Europe the intermarriage rate was far lower than Germany, cases of gentile rapes of Jewish women (most notably during the Khmelnytsky Uprising) make the gentile admixture with Eastern Ashkenazics notably greater than Western Ashkenazics (although still minor) during early modern times. The 2017 Xue et all study ("The time and place of European admixture in Ashkenazi Jewish history") determined through IBD sharing that the Eastern European admixture in Ashkenazi Jews was approximately 10-20 generations ago, so the 17th century may indeed be where much of it occurred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoEuropean View Post
    Germans before WW2 after that not too sure, probably French.
    No evidence of that. See where Italian Jews plot. They plot south of Ashkenazim. It's not something that you will deduce by guessing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Samnium View Post
    No evidence of that. See where Italian Jews plot. They plot south of Ashkenazim. It's not something that you will deduce by guessing.
    There were laws put in place when Jews returned to France that forbade intermarriage, sharing housing or even fraternizing with Jews. Askenazim aren't the metric for Jewishness, they are the metric for Ashkenazi's, they plot closest to people from the Caucus and Druze people. Also Ashkenazi's are a sliver of the Jewish genepool that is shallower than puddle when it comes to genetics. Lastly, genetic studies usually have tiny sample sizes, so even my points are fairly moot. A couple hundred to maybe a couple 1000 samples hardly constitutes definitive results imo.

    https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/germany-1750-1945

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