What Ashkenazi Jewish group is genetically the most European and Middle Eastern?

[Token]

No evidence of that. See where Italian Jews plot. They plot south of Ashkenazim. It's not something that you will deduce by guessing.

As usual PaleoEuropean is clueless about everything he talks about.

[PaleoEuropean]

As usual PaleoEuropean is clueless about everything he talks about.

Stalk me much , keep being butt hurt.

[Voskos]

A bit off topic: why is the term ashkenazi being used for Eastern European Jews? Doesn't ashkenaz mean Germany?

[Aberration]

I would say the upper middle class Ashkenazis that largely assimilated in Germany would be the most European. And most Middle Eastern probably any strict Haredi community.

There were laws put in place when Jews returned to France that forbade intermarriage, sharing housing or even fraternizing with Jews. Askenazim aren't the metric for Jewishness, they are the metric for Ashkenazi's, they plot closest to people from the Caucus and Druze people. Also Ashkenazi's are a sliver of the Jewish genepool that is shallower than puddle when it comes to genetics. Lastly, genetic studies usually have tiny sample sizes, so even my points are fairly moot. A couple hundred to maybe a couple 1000 samples hardly constitutes definitive results imo.

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/germany-1750-1945

Ashkenazi Jews are actually an especially diverse population genetically. Maybe not as diverse as South Asians or Sub-Saharan Africans, but they have high heterozygosity.

Through genomic analysis, researchers have shown that the Ashkenazi Jewish population is genetically more diverse than people of European descent, despite previous assumptions that Ashkenazi Jews have been an isolated population. In addition, analyses of disease-related genes of higher prevalence in the Ashkenazi Jewish population indicate that only a minority of traits show signs of positive selection, suggesting that most have arisen through random genetic drift.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0826141331.htm

[Pine]

I believe the Global25 sample for Ashkenazi_Germany comes Yekke Jews in Israel. Perhaps from a kibbutzim founded by German Jews like this one: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafetz_Haim). Descendants of Assimilationists would naturally not be included.

From initial settlement until widespread assimilation in the 19th century, gentile gene flow into the German Jewish population was virtually non-existent. While in 19th to early 20th century Eastern Europe the intermarriage rate was far lower than Germany, cases of gentile rapes of Jewish women (most notably during the Khmelnytsky Uprising) make the gentile admixture with Eastern Ashkenazics notably greater than Western Ashkenazics (although still minor) during early modern times. The 2017 Xue et all study ("The time and place of European admixture in Ashkenazi Jewish history") determined through IBD sharing that the Eastern European admixture in Ashkenazi Jews was approximately 10-20 generations ago, so the 17th century may indeed be where much of it occurred.

I've never seen Yekke results with a surprise German grandparent or great-grandparent. There is more than one study attesting that they're the most south shifted of Ashkenazim. IBD sharing with Eastern Euros is from converting their women and Jewish exits into East Euro society. I haven't yet seen one reliably East Slavic YDNA among Jews.

[Aberration]

I would say the upper middle class Ashkenazis that largely assimilated in Germany would be the most European. And most Middle Eastern probably any strict Haredi community.

I've never seen Yekke results with a surprise German grandparent or great-grandparent. There is more than one study attesting that they're the most south shifted of Ashkenazim.

There must have been at least some German immigrants from mixed marriages during the Fifth Aliyah. However Hafetz Haim was founded by all anti-assimilationists. My point was that it may be possible to isolate a Yekke population in Israel with no assimilationist influence.

IBD sharing with Eastern Euros is from converting their women and Jewish exits into East Euro society. I haven't yet seen one reliably East Slavic YDNA among Jews.

In reaction to the Khmelnytsky Uprising of the 17th century there was significant conversions of Jews in Ukraine to Orthodoxy, not the other way around. Perhaps the outward gene flow is why IBD sharing dates East European admixture back to around that time. Rapes of Jewish women were still commonly reported during the uprising, so at least some Y-DNA in Ukrainian Jews must be Slavic.

[Pine]

There must have been at least some German immigrants from mixed marriages during the Fifth Aliyah. However Hafetz Haim was founded by all anti-assimilationists. My point was that it may be possible to isolate a Yekke population in Israel with no assimilationist influence.

It's only worthwhile focusing on this if all the studies used the same dataset of German Jews.

In reaction to the Khmelnytsky Uprising century there was significant conversions of Jews in Ukraine to Orthodoxy, not the other way around.

You're too focused on that time period. Most, if not all of, Slavic MTDNA among Jews appears West Slavic and unrelated to that.

Perhaps the outward gene flow is why IBD sharing dates East European admixture back to around that time. Rapes of Jewish women were still commonly reported during the uprising, so at least some Y-DNA in Ukrainian Jews must be Slavic.

I'm fully aware of the rapes. Let me know when you find East Slavic YDNA in a Jew.

[Aberration]

A bit off topic: why is the term ashkenazi being used for Eastern European Jews? Doesn't ashkenaz mean Germany?

Ashkenez was a great-grandson of Noah. Jews have associated his descendants originally with the Scythians, and eventually all Northern European peoples they encountered including Germans.
When Ashkenazi Jews became distinct in the Rhineland during the High Middle Ages, they called the region Ashkenaz and identified themselves with that name. When the expanded Eastward, they kept the name.

No Jews ever claimed to descend from Ashkenaz, they just identified with a region where they believed the native inhabitants descend from Ashkenaz.

[Aberration]

It's only worthwhile focusing on this if all the studies used the same dataset of German Jews.




You're too focused on that time period. Most, if not all of, Slavic MTDNA among Jews appears West Slavic and unrelated to that.



I'm fully aware of the rapes. Let me know when you find East Slavic YDNA in a Jew.

Between 1569 and 1648 large numbers of Jews from Western and Central Poland West of the Vistula moved East to serve absentee Polish landlords in the management of newly acquired land in Ruthenia/Ukraine. In this wave the Jewish population increased from an insignificant 4,000 to nearly 51,325. The Litvak Jewish population grew from the Late Middle ages on because of a unique bottleneck, rather than a large wave of migration.

Given a newly significant Ukrainian Jewish population facing frequent attacks, it would make more sense for Admixture to occur in mid-17th century Ukraine than Late Middle Age Western Poland which was more stable.

[Unknown European]

I would say the upper middle class Ashkenazis that largely assimilated in Germany would be the most European. And most Middle Eastern probably any strict Haredi community.

In my case I don't see that. I am entirely descended from Upper-Middle class Assimilated Ashkenazi Jews from Northeastern France and Western Germany my ancestors moved to the United States in the mid 19th century. my GG grandfather who was from Alsace had like 14 kids and like half of them married non-Jews. There are very very few Americans who are only descended from these mid 19th century immigrants because they kept intermarrying with non Yekkes. I belong to that rare group of those that are pure descendents. If you look at some of the names in my family tree you can see we were assimilated some names were Julius, Wilhelm, Herbert, Charles, Louis, Maurice, Fredrick, Gunther, Bernard, Ludwig, etc Many male relatives were named after their fathers which is rare in Ashkenazi Jews. Few had Hebrew letters on their grave stones. and there are other ways in which we were assimilated. Anyways enough talk about how my family was assimilated but my genetics. I am one of the most MENA shifted Ashkenazi I have ever seen. Here are some GEDMATCH stuff to show that

This is Eurogenes K13 Oracles
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 5.334238
2 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.686549
3 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 5.698139
4 Algerian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 5.710593
5 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 5.747416
6 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Libyan_Jewish @ 5.967445
7 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 6.056373
8 Algerian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 6.101953
9 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + Sephardic_Jewish @ 6.124269
10 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 6.129418
11 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Samaritan @ 6.135683
12 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish @ 6.164940
13 Algerian_Jewish + Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 6.167490
14 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 6.167686
15 Algerian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 6.174031
16 Cyprian + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 6.215404
17 Ashkenazi + Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 6.247267
18 Algerian_Jewish + Algerian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 6.254271
19 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze + West_Sicilian @ 6.272664
20 Italian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Sephardic_Jewish + Tunisian_Jewish @ 6.277711

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.7% Italian_Jewish + 14.3% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.22
2 93.5% Italian_Jewish + 6.5% Yemenite_Jewish @ 4.54
3 89.6% Italian_Jewish + 10.4% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.59
4 90.8% Italian_Jewish + 9.2% Samaritan @ 4.72
5 92.6% Italian_Jewish + 7.4% Palestinian @ 4.79
6 96.5% Italian_Jewish + 3.5% Iranian_Jewish @ 4.9
7 93.3% Italian_Jewish + 6.7% Cyprian @ 4.91
8 97.1% Italian_Jewish + 2.9% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.93
9 96.3% Italian_Jewish + 3.7% Jordanian @ 4.93
10 97.9% Italian_Jewish + 2.1% Saudi @ 4.93
11 89.8% Italian_Jewish + 10.2% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.94
12 97.2% Italian_Jewish + 2.8% Lebanese_Muslim @ 4.95
13 98.1% Italian_Jewish + 1.9% Egyptian @ 4.96
14 98.5% Italian_Jewish + 1.5% Assyrian @ 4.96
15 99.4% Italian_Jewish + 0.6% Bedouin @ 4.97
16 100% Italian_Jewish + 0% Syrian @ 4.98
17 100% Italian_Jewish + 0% Abhkasian @ 4.98
18 100% Italian_Jewish + 0% Adygei @ 4.98
19 100% Italian_Jewish + 0% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.98
20 100% Italian_Jewish + 0% Afghan_Tadjik @ 4.98