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Thread: Continental ancestry of colonial latinos in the 40-65% euro range from Gedmatch

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    Veteran Member Argentano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamastor View Post
    Well, yeah, I agree that my observations are not significant in those levels, from 40% to 42% SSA there's barely any difference, but we should take GEDmatch results with a grain of salt anyway. The tool is very old and even if it can show some interesting tendencies, it's still not designed for that. I like your work, I'm just pointing the problems with GEDmatch; there are better calculators right now.

    I understand its true what you say that some highly euro Cubans and highly euro brazilian scoring "high" NEA/SSA can be in canarian/azorean levels. But remember those are the minority of the thousands of samples i post in this sites. For example in this thread everybody posted is in the mestizo/pardo level. So this doesent even apply

    And also take into consideration that not every canarian/azorian scores super high SSA/NEA . Some actually score low levels. So for a cuban/brazilian group to be in the same range as those euros you cannot have everybody scoring the max. You should be close to the average of that group.

    And last I am not so sure that the low level compoents are always noise. For example somebody could say that the 0-2% SSA in regular iberians is noise, but i almost never see SSA in northern euro kits. So why should some nations score "noise" and others dont? i dont really think those low levels are always noise. I think they are something even when its small

    User token laughed when i tried to explain him that the high siberian in latinos wasnt just noise or an error of the calculator. Here you have a siberian boxplot of 2 indomestizo nations vs iberia Do you think this is just noise? Its a very clear pattern that the calculator correctly sees in most samples, even when its small.

    I am not saying this guys are siberian but there is something consistent in the results. IMO something related the Native American ancestry in those countries and clearly not european


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    Quote Originally Posted by Argentano View Post
    I understand its true what you say that some highly euro Cubans and highly euro brazilian scoring "high" NEA/SSA can be in canarian/azorean levels. But remember those are the minority of the thousands of samples i post in this sites. For example in this thread everybody posted is in the mestizo/pardo level. So this doesent even apply

    And also take into consideration that not every canarian/azorian scores super high SSA/NEA . Some actually score low levels. So for a cuban/brazilian group to be in the same range as those euros you cannot have everybody scoring the max. You should be close to the average of that group.

    And last I am not so sure that the low level compoents are always noise. For example somebody could say that the 0-2% SSA in regular iberians is noise, but i almost never see SSA in northern euro kits. So why should some nations score "noise" and others dont? i dont really think those low levels are always noise. I think they are something even when its small

    User token laughed when i tried to explain him that the high siberian in latinos wasnt just noise or an error of the calculator. Here you have a siberian boxplot of 2 indomestizo nations vs iberia Do you think this is just noise? Its a very clear pattern that the calculator correctly sees in most samples, even when its small.

    I am not saying this guys are siberian but there is something consistent in the results. IMO something related the Native American ancestry in those countries and clearly not european

    This type of ''noise'' isn't really noise as you pointed well. This type of ancestry is really there. The problem is that GEDmatch calculators lack many references to extremely important archaic groups, like Iberomaurusians or Paleo-Amerindians, so they mistake these things for other components, it also can mistake part of the ANE or even WHG ancestry in Europeans as East Eurasian or SSA (there are proto-Indo-European samples scoring 5% SSA, what is completely impossible). That's what Token was talking about.

    Just to show one case: We know for academic peer-reviewed studies that average Maghrebis aren't 25% West African as showed by GEDmatch calculators. They are roughly 1/3 Iberomaurusian, 1/3 Sardinian, 1/3 Levant. But no GEDmatch calculator has Iberomaurusian components, that's why all North Africans come up as 1/4 SSA, because of some deep ancestry shared by Iberomaurusians and West Africans.

    That's the source of Iberian ''SSA'', North African admixture. That's why Canarians, Portuguese, Galicians always score SSA even if they don't have black ancestry and Basques never score it. The cline goes like this: Canarians can be from 15% to 40-50% North African, so they score from 5% to 10% SSA + Northeast African; Portuguese and Galicians can range from 5% to 1/8 (12%) North African, so they score in the 3-4% range, Andalusians are around 5% North African, so they score 2-3% and so on.

    When we model heavily Euro (80%+) Cubans or Brazilians we must take into account that not all of the Northeast African + SSA is actual recent black admixture. In cases of people scoring 4%, 5%, maybe even all of it must come from North African instead of true ''black slave'' ancestry. In the case of Amerindian I don't know, but things like Siberian in very low amounts could have come both from Europeans and from Amerindians, so it's hard to know.

    In the case of South Asian, Southeast Asian and East Asian I take for granted that it is noise, there's no other explanation, especially for South Asian.

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    Veteran Member Argentano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamastor View Post
    This type of ''noise'' isn't really noise as you pointed well. This type of ancestry is really there. The problem is that GEDmatch calculators lack many references to extremely important archaic groups, like Iberomaurusians or Paleo-Amerindians, so they mistake these things for other components, it also can mistake part of the ANE or even WHG ancestry in Europeans as East Eurasian or SSA (there are proto-Indo-European samples scoring 5% SSA, what is completely impossible). That's what Token was talking about.

    Just to show one case: We know for academic peer-reviewed studies that average Maghrebis aren't 25% West African as showed by GEDmatch calculators. They are roughly 1/3 Iberomaurusian, 1/3 Sardinian, 1/3 Levant. But no GEDmatch calculator has Iberomaurusian components, that's why all North Africans come up as 1/4 SSA, because of some deep ancestry shared by Iberomaurusians and West Africans.

    That's the source of Iberian ''SSA'', North African admixture. That's why Canarians, Portuguese, Galicians always score SSA even if they don't have black ancestry and Basques never score it. The cline goes like this: Canarians can be from 15% to 40-50% North African, so they score from 5% to 10% SSA + Northeast African; Portuguese and Galicians can range from 5% to 1/8 (12%) North African, so they score in the 3-4% range, Andalusians are around 5% North African, so they score 2-3% and so on.

    When we model heavily Euro (80%+) Cubans or Brazilians we must take into account that not all of the Northeast African + SSA is actual recent black admixture. In cases of people scoring 4%, 5%, maybe even all of it must come from North African instead of true ''black slave'' ancestry. In the case of Amerindian I don't know, but things like Siberian in very low amounts could have come both from Europeans and from Amerindians, so it's hard to know.

    In the case of South Asian, Southeast Asian and East Asian I take for granted that it is noise, there's no other explanation, especially for South Asian.
    But here in this thread/boxplots/eurogenes k15 we are talking about ancient ancestry. If you are part iberomarusian arent you part ancient SSA too?

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018...ncient-culture

    DNA in hand, Van de Loosdrecht and Choongwon Jeong, also ​of SHH, were able to analyze genetic material from the cell’s nucleus in five people and the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA from seven people. But they found no genetic tie to ancient Europeans. Instead, the ancient Iberomaurusians appear to be related to Middle Easterners and other Africans: They shared about two-thirds of their genetic ancestry with Natufians, hunter-gatherers who lived in the Middle East 14,500 to 11,000 years ago, and one-third with sub-Saharan Africans who were most closely related to today’s West Africans and the Hadza of Tanzania.
    Apparently this iberomarusians were already 33% SSA. So its understandable that the more iberomarusian a population is, the more ancient SSA people will score.

    I think you assumed i was saying the SSA in the boxplots was recent from slaves but i never said so.

    It seems we were both looking at different things (Recent SSA vs ancient SSA) thats why we couldnt understand each other

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    Quote Originally Posted by Argentano View Post

    I think you assumed i was saying the SSA in the boxplots was recent from slaves but i never said so.
    It seems we were both looking at different things (Recent SSA vs ancient SSA) thats why we couldnt understand each other
    Yeah, that's likely the reason of misunderstanding. Not all SSA in Latin Americans with Canarian/Portuguese/Galician/Extremaduran ancestry is recent from slaves. The good hint is the Northeast African component, if the guy also scores it in substantial amounts (more than 1.5%) likely part of his Northeast_African + SSA is from Portuguese/Spanish North African ancestry.


    Apparently this iberomarusians were already 33% SSA. So its understandable that the more iberomarusian a population is, the more ancient SSA people will score.
    Actually no one have an idea of what exactly Iberomaurusians were, we know that 70% of their DNA was Caucasus-related (Dzudzuana) and 30% ''Ancient North African'', an archaic population that no one has an idea of what they were. Neolithic farmers from Europe had Iberomaurusian ancestry via Natufian-related type of ancestry and Natufians themselves had SSA affinities. When we reach ancient populations, these simple classifications of ''Caucasoid'', ''Negroid'' or ''Mongoloid'' start to blurry. For example, there's a 40.000 years gap between WHGs, ANE and Natufians, so saying they are all West Eurasian isn't necessarily true. Populations with those components may be regarded as West Eurasian nowadays, but the pure forms are something else. Chad Rohlfsen of Population Genomics blog and Razib Khan believe that Iberomaurusians were fully ''Caucasoid'', while others disagree. What we know for sure is that both West Eurasian and SSA populations have Iberomaurusian contributions. In the same way we discovered ANE in Amerindians, it seems many Sub-Saharan populations have Eurasian ties.

    That's why I think using calculators based on ancient components (like GEDmatch) to calculate ''Caucasian'', ''Negroid'' and ''Indigenous'' ancestries in Latin Americans aren't really useful, especially considering that GEDmatch lacks samples from many of those populations. I think K13/K15 are indeed the best GEDmatch calculators, but they are very far behind more sophisticate tools like nMonte (that is, by far, the best way to model someone's ancestry).

    I'm not saying this because I have any agenda and want to pass off Latinos with 30% Amerindian or SSA as Europeans, it's just an objection from a ''scientific'' standpoint. I really think 23andme (and similar calculators) are more efficient picking up Latin American ancestry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Argentano View Post
    Some comments regarding this pardos

    Cuba is mostly euro ssa very low amerindian

    Venezuela has more amerindian than ssa. Phenotopically they look the other way around

    Southern cone mestizos plus mexican mestizos have similar low ssa
    That's only valid if you pick the darkest/most SSA lower class Venezuelans from the large cities, as the Venezuelan average, when they're not. And they look more SSA, precisely because they are more African than the Venezuelan SSA average.

    A very average Venezuelan look (when we average ALL the Venezuelan population) would be somebody who looks like half Euro, and shows some Amerindian and African traits, and looks kind of mestizoid, but with some more or less visible African influence, not enough, however, to make the person look mulatto. Diosdado Cabello would be a good example.
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    Argentano has a clear agenda is making us believe 30% amerindian is invisible while at the first time paiting someone like Oprah Winfrey a typical balanced mulatto. I bet he thinks your average harnizo looks like Penélope Cruz or Sophia Loren and your average balanced mestizo like Salma Hayek or Ximena Navarrete LMAO. That's how biased some Latin Americans are on this board. Don't blame the poor guy though. He lacks exposure to diversity where he lives. I bet he thinks the average Venezuelan looks like Elvis Andrus or some shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daven View Post
    Argentano has a clear agenda is making us believe 30% amerindian is invisible while at the first time paiting someone like Oprah Winfrey a typical balanced mulatto. I bet he thinks your average harnizo looks like Penélope Cruz or Sophia Loren and your average balanced mestizo like Salma Hayek or Ximena Navarrete LMAO. That's how biased some Latin Americans are on this board. Don't blame the poor guy though. He lacks exposure to diversity where he lives. I bet he thinks the average Venezuelan looks like Elvis Andrus or some shit.
    I have only 18.75%(less than castizos) and the Amerindian in me Is visible in slanted eyes and nose
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    Up to 6% the native could be visible, but there are also some individuals who have more than 25% amerindian and not show any trait off.
    With the SSA happens the same, some with 8% have a wide nose or woolly hair and others with 20% don't show nothing.
    Genetics and Phenotype not always match.
    And Daven, this time you are wrong.
    This is not a an homogeneous country.
    NOT AT ALL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamastor View Post
    Just to show one case: We know for academic peer-reviewed studies that average Maghrebis aren't 25% West African as showed by GEDmatch calculators. They are roughly 1/3 Iberomaurusian, 1/3 Sardinian, 1/3 Levant. But no GEDmatch calculator has Iberomaurusian components, that's why all North Africans come up as 1/4 SSA, because of some deep ancestry shared by Iberomaurusians and West Africans.

    That's the source of Iberian ''SSA'', North African admixture.
    Iberomaurusians were "racially" 40% Sub-Saharan, 2018 study says:

    "main mixture model for the Iberomaurusians in M. van de Loosdrecht et al. (~60/40% Natufian-like/Sub-Saharan African-related)."

    Did you think they were pure Caucasoids? Just because they lived in North Africa? And no, they were most likely not ancestral to Natufians despite what another study claimed. As Chad Rohlfsen (from "Population Genomics Blog") explained, it had to be shared ancestor (rather than one being descended from the other).

    Quote:

    "Iberomaurusian > Natufian doesn't go with the fact Natufians have no relationship with Africans. Natufians and Iberomaurusians share an ancestor."

    And only partially shared ancestor. The other part of Iberomaurusian ancestry was SSA-relared. This is the mixture model that Davidski posted on Eurogenes Blog:

    [1] distance%=24.6253 / distance=0.246253

    Iberomaurusian

    Natufian 65.45
    Dinka 22.9
    Yoruba 9.45

    Tianyuan 2.2

    In terms of physical anthropology, in Prehistoric North Africa according to "The Terminal Pleistocene and Early Holocene Populations of Northern Africa (1999)", quote:

    "Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time."

    ^^^
    For example one of the oldest known North African Homo Sapiens looked like this:



    ^^^
    Does is it really matter so much if "SSA" DNA in Iberomaurusians was from people like modern Yoruba, like modern Dinka (Nilotes), or from people similar to this very ancient Jebel Irhoud Man?:

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017...-found-morocco

    It still means ancestry way more closely related to modern SSA than to modern Non-Africans. K15 reads it correctly as Non-Caucasoid.

    And it still means that the Iberomaurusians probably looked "like President Barack Obama", or even more African than him.
    Last edited by Peterski; 02-21-2020 at 02:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erronkari View Post
    Up to 6% the native could be visible, but there are also some individuals who have more than 25% amerindian and not show any trait off.
    With the SSA happens the same, some with 8% have a wide nose or woolly hair and others with 20% don't show nothing.
    Genetics and Phenotype not always match.
    And Daven, this time you are wrong.
    This is not a an homogeneous country.
    NOT AT ALL.
    I thought he was Chilean (even with that name and all LMAO). Either way I was referring to SSA diversity which the South Cone has (some) but not to the level of New York or Santo Domingo for example. Of course Argentina is diverse. You guys have blancos from all areas of Europe. Plus mestizos of all types, Asians, Middle easterns, Bolivians, Paraguayans, some Venezuelans, some Dominicans, etc, etc. I don't like Argentano at all. He called me new world black in a derogatory way.

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