the pan-arabist vs "something else" duality in mena country and why it dosen't add up

**dark-mysterio** · 02-17-2020, 04:42 AM

the reason i am making this tread is because of things i have seen here in the apricity as well as in the internet (for an example youtube video commentary) or anywhere else when it's come tho north african and middle eastern.

in which i believe this seriously doesn't add-up (according to my) and least according tho history (if i don't get wrong)

there is always "these partisan people" (for some of them not all) or the others that say the same thing as these partisan people in which some of them are keyboard warriors in both side

usually its goes something like dat:

about the Maghrebi

an-arabist "we are all Arabs in the Maghreb--Berbers/Amazigh is a false identity in the Maghreb" vs the berberist we are all amazigh--Arabs identity is false identity in the Maghreb/there is no arabs in the maghreb"

there is also the case of the Lebanese identity

an Arabist vs Phoenicianist duality or among the Egyptian: pan-arabism vs pharaonism dualism but i don't know what's the pan-arabist of these country like tho claim beside "the we are arabs" basic claim off all the pan-Arabs

such ideology also tend to turn intro some kind of Afrocentrist or even Nordicist who some claim non-Nordic civilization like Rome: where for an example pan-Arabs and Berberist in the Maghreb will try tho both claim ancient Carthage or even the Phoenician

now i will tries to explain to you via example why its "doesn't add up" via example:

in my exemple i will divide the mena people in 3 categories: (which i consider a more realistic separation but i don't mine if somebody tell my than i got wrong)

1.the people (pre-arabs mostly) that historically belong tho there lands (whatsoever identifying seriously as natives Berbers,Copts or non natives identification such as Arabs/neutral-there country/others "regardless of there religion" in all case)

2.the ethnic Arabs that migrated to these land and mixed there culture with other therefore becoming a part of the ethnogenesis and cultural identity of these country (Arab-Berber Maghrebi culture group,Arab-Levantine cultural group...)

3.others that dose not belong tho categories 1 or 2 like Black people,Jews,Armenian... or others ethnic minority (in most case) in mena country

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my first example i will us is the one I'm more familiar/know more about about the Maghreb case of the pan-arabist vs berberist now let's see what historian or travelers have to about modern ethnogenesis of the region:

first here is a book about the regency of Algiers (somewhat Algeria or at least part of it before the African colonization/independence)

(source https://cutt.ly/3rVGikd) in the book we have the tree categories first the natives (first categories) two the arabs (second categories) three the others (third categories)

1."people The people of this northern portion of who deserve the most attention are the Kabyles"

2.The Arabs inhabit the plains of this kingdom they live in tents and are constantly changing their positions according to the seasons and abundance of pasturage Their manners are purely pastoral and they probably possess both the virtues and the vices of their Asiatic ancestors

3."The Moors then the great majority of the population of this kingdom are a factitious race from the ancient Africans the Arabs emigrants from Spain" "The Jews of whom there are about five thousand in this city have the free exercise of their religion"

here is a book about morocco in the 1800

(source: https://cutt.ly/VrVH64t)

1."There are the Berbers, a race of of wandering shepherds the descendants of the ancient Libyan,who are supposed to be been the primitive inhabitants of the country"

2."There are the wandering Arabs of the plains"

3."The Moors are the inhabitants of towns and cities" "the Jews, who also confine themselves entirely tho the cities"

again we have a exact/same case with first the Berbers natives (categories one) then the ethnic arabs categories two and last the jews and moors (middle age Andalusian) (third categories)

now a book about egypt (source:https://cutt.ly/KrVXEVK)

1.in the following brief memoir The Copts at present compose less than one fourteenth part of the population of Egypt their number being not more than about a hundred and fifty thousand About ten thousand of them reside in the metropolis In some parts of Upper Egypt are villages exclusively inhabited by persons of this race and the district called the Feiyoo m particularly abounds with them The vast number of ruined convents and churches existing in various parts of Egypt shows that the Copts were very numerous a few centuries ago but every year many of them have embraced the Mohhammadan faith and become intermixed by marriage with Moos lims and thus the number of genuine and Christian Copts has been reduced to its present small amount The Copts are undoubtedly descendants of the ancient.

2.none of the Arab tribes surpassed in power courage hospitality and other virtues for which the Arabs of the Desert are so famous.

3.in the present work There are in this country about five thousand Jews

in this case we also have the tree categories first copts (both christian and Muslim) two the arabs and tree the jews

here is an book about Syria (https://cutt.ly/urVKdCs)

1."I Population Ethnographically the population of Syria consists of Syrians* Greeks*³ Arabs*² Turks*³ Jews*³ and Franks*³"

again we have the same case first natives Syrians (Aramaic ?) (categories one) then Arabs (categories two) then third parties minority (Greek,Turks...) (categories three)

*²=ethnic Arabs categories
*³=minority categories

so my conclusion of this first tread message is than dna test if they want to add up with with the witness of the travelers in some mena country should represent the three categories than i posted up of my tread with

first the natives component (Berbers,Copts,Armeans,kurds...) then the second categories people with ethnic Arabs ancestry outside the Arabian peninsula (hilalians/maqil in the Maghreb,Rashaida in Egypt,ghassanids in Lebanon....) and finally the third categories/others (black people in mena country,Jewish,Armenian,Maghrebi with Andalusian/Iberian ancestry...) if not that mean the travelers documenting use about these land where in the error and a case can be made than dna test didn't exist at that time so they might in error confirmed by dna test

and sorry for my english

**dark-mysterio** · 02-17-2020, 05:11 AM

! i wanted to make a separate post !

there is some case where certainly of these ideology collide each others without the need of being directly a " "vs the pan-arabist

what about if some berberist claim the siwi Berbers of egypt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siwi_people) as being Berbers and so there for-like them but then some hardcore pharaonist come and say this is a plot we are all 100% Copts/ancient Egyptian !!!

what do they do do they shut up about the siwi Berbers and valid/accept the claim of the hardcore pharaonist or do they the insist tho the pharaonist in question than the siwi are a Berbers group in egypt

such ideology (i personally believe) will at some day clash with others they don't except an others weird example could be if some pan-arabist wants to claim arabs ethnics minority in iran but then a hardcore Pan-Iranist (i don't know a lot about the Pan-Iranism movements so it just an example if any Iranians/others wants to correct my) guy come and say "no shut up

!!! it's a conspiracy theory we are all 100% persian in iran there is no arabs ethnic minority in iran !" what the pan-arabs guy do ?

the example case of the pan-arabist and the pan-iranist can be inverted with the pan-iranist claiming Iranic minority or Kurds in Iraq for example and the pan-arabs responding we are all arabs 100%

!!! there is no such things as Kurds or people wait Iranic ancestry in Iraq

**dark-mysterio** · 02-17-2020, 11:12 AM

bump

**dark-mysterio** · 02-18-2020, 01:11 PM

bump

**dark-mysterio** · 02-21-2020, 12:05 PM

bump

**Dr_Maul** · 02-26-2020, 03:17 PM

Well personally I don't agree with pan arabism especially when you are grouping all of north africa with arabia and mesopotamia. Pan arabism means the death of berber culture and over-all abandonment of what makes MENA countries unique, not to mention that it is factually incorrect half the time (like in the case of many populations in Syria Lebanon Iraq etc)

**~~Kamal900~~** · 02-26-2020, 03:38 PM

Well, I'm against all forms of pan-isms really which includes pan-Arabism and so on, and yes, I do want to see Berbers, Copts and others preserve their cultures and ethnic identities for the future. For us Palestinians at least, Ba3thism is dead at it's door knob, and nobody believes in such ideology anymore. I mean, the Irish for example aren't Arabs or Muslims, and yet, we feel more closer to them than to other Arabs due to similar histories and their massive support for us and so on. The same thing goes to many Latin American countries as well like Bolivia before the coup by the US, Venezuela, Chile, and hell, even say Mexico and so on. In regards to the genetics of the Egyptians, both ancient and modern Egyptians cluster the closest to their Semitic neighbors of the Southern Levant and Arabia than to the Maghrebis. I myself am genetically very closely affiliated to the ancient Egyptians:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...cestry-Results

Yes, we should end these political parties that ends with -isms really, and discuss and solve these matters in a civilized and equal manner rather than allowing ourselves to be controlled by alien powers of the world like the US and so on.