Frisians: how Anglo-Saxons looked like before mixing with Celts

[Peterski]

BTW has anyone attempted to model Scandinavians as e.g. Dutch Beaker + Pre-Beaker Scandinavians (hunters, farmers, etc.)?

In Scandinavia, hunter-gatherers co-existed with Neolithic farmers all the way until Indo-Europeans came.

Hunter-gatherers were never completely replaced by or/and assimilated by Neolithic farmers, like it happened in Britain.

So any models for modern Scandinavians should take into account that Beakers could mix either with farmers or with hunters.

[Token]

In the Copper & Early Bronze a lot of the samples were 0% Neolithic British (they were "fresh off the boat").

But some had high percentages, here are the examples:

I5379 - 20% Neolithic British
I2416 - 41% Neolithic British
I2568 - 24% Neolithic British
I1767 - 26% Neolithic British
I2462 - 35% Neolithic British
I5515 - 19% Neolithic British
I5516 - 18% Neolithic British

In later times, you don't see individuals with over 30% anymore, but the average amount in the population increased.

Yeah, Irish are not simply Bell Beaker, they also got a lot of a more southerly component but most of it is probably related to Celtic movements rather than to Neolithic British survival.

[Peterski]

Yeah, Irish are not simply Bell Beaker, they also got a lot of a more southerly component but most of it is probably related to Celtic movements rather than to Neolithic British survival.

Yeah but the English and Welsh are more southern-shifted than the Irish - as Grace wrote here.

And at least in Wales (maybe in parts of England too) it must be related largely to Neolithic British.

I also doubt Celtic migration affected some remote Scottish Highlands that much.

The Picts / Caledonians were probably largely of local Beaker + Neolithic stock.

[Token]

On Gedmatch cals like Eurogenes the Irish are closer to North Dutch and Scandinavian populations while the English are closer to South Dutch and Belgians. I don't know if this is because of higher Steppe in some populations like the Irish and North Dutch. Possibly someone like Token could be forthcoming with an explanation? It looks like Gedmatch is having a site maintenance at the minute so I can't post my K15 but I noticed that on K13 North Dutch is my no 1 and on K15 my no 1 is Irish although my brother has the opposite result with K13 being Irish and his K13 being more Scandinavian leaning.

Yes, the English probably got some French ancestry, they are not simply a mixture of Britons and Anglo-Saxons.

[Peterski]

Generally Wales is bad for farming, that's why the Anglo-Saxons did not even bother to conquer it. They just built a dyke around it (Offa's Dyke) to prevent the Welsh from taking back their former lands. You can expect the same from all previous invaders. Nobody wanted / bothered to settle in Wales. So the Welsh must have the most ancient ancestry. Also probably no any Roman admixture, because the Romans did not care to settle there.

So you can't explain their southern shift with the Romans.

[Synapsid]

The English except for maybe in the far south east are no where near as blonde as Dutch and north Germans. They are pale as crap but on average shorter and have darker hair.

I beg to differ. Hair colour in Isles population differ by Ethnicity, not latitude like in Iberia or Italy, both of which had significant post-neolithic MENA migration and geography close to non-European populations which is not the case for NW Europeans. South East English are not that much different from non-East Anglia English population in pigmentation once you factor out the Norse influence in the region of England that used to be Danelaw.

[SharpFork]

Generally Wales is bad for farming, that's why the Anglo-Saxons did not even bother to conquer it. They just built a dyke around it (Offa's Dyke) to prevent the Welsh from taking back their former lands. You can expect the same from all previous invaders. Nobody wanted / bothered to settle in Wales. So the Welsh must have the most ancient ancestry. Also probably no any Roman admixture, because the Romans did not care to settle there.

So you can't explain their southern shift with the Romans.

Why not? The Roman period lasted 3 and a half century and if that was not the culprit westward internal migration among Britons could have been as well, we know Britons were mobile during this period. I wouldn't rule such possibilities.

[Peterski]

Why not? The Roman period lasted 3 and a half century and if that was not the culprit westward internal migration among Britons could have been as well, we know Britons were mobile during this period. I wouldn't rule such possibilities.

The Romans barely even controlled Wales. And in Cornwall the Britons were also semi-independent (the Romans just collected tributes).

Romanisation was the strongest in Southeast England, that's the part that became the most civilized and Romans built cities, roads, etc.

=====

Britons were mobile after the Anglo-Saxon invasion, many escaped (or were pushed by the invaders) from eastern parts to western parts.

There was also a strong migration of Britons overseas - to Bretagne and to Britonia in Iberia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britonia

[SharpFork]

The Romans barely even controlled Wales. And in Cornwall the Britons were also semi-independent (the Romans just collected tributes).

Romanisation was the strongest in Southeast England, that's the part that became the most civilized and Romans built cities, roads, etc.

It doesn't matter, 3 and a half century of direct control is a long time and we can't rule out internal migration during the period or even during late antiquity, Welsh populations might have more isolated, but not so much and they are small enough(8-10 times smaller than England's for the pre-modern era let's say) as to make even smaller migration leave an imprint.

Plus Welsh are (relatively?) internally different north and south, so you can't even really say they form one distnict cluster.

[Peterski]

It doesn't matter, 3 and a half century of direct control is a long time and we can't rule out internal migration during the period or even during late antiquity, Welsh populations might have more isolated, but not so much and they are small enough(8-10 times smaller than England's for the pre-modern era let's say) as to make even smaller migration leave an imprint.

This guy lived near Canterbury (Kent) around year 1900 BC (>500 years after Beaker invasion), and had 35% Neolithic British ancestry:

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 31.41
2 North_Sea 28.27
3 West_Med 21.28
4 Baltic 9.08
5 Eastern_Euro 6.66
6 Red_Sea 1.37
7 Amerindian 1.07
8 West_Asian 0.79
9 East_Med 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French 9.72
2 Spanish_Cantabria 10.2
3 Southwest_French 10.53
4 Spanish_Cataluna 10.74
5 South_Dutch 11.34
6 Spanish_Galicia 11.52
7 Southwest_English 11.61
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.69
9 Portuguese 12.3
10 Spanish_Aragon 13.05
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.31
12 Spanish_Extremadura 13.35
13 Southeast_English 13.47
14 Spanish_Murcia 13.48
15 Spanish_Valencia 13.71
16 West_German 14.84
17 Irish 15.05
18 Spanish_Andalucia 15.48
19 West_Scottish 15.64
20 North_German 16.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.8% Southwest_French + 32.2% West_Norwegian @ 5.31
2 53.2% Southwest_French + 46.8% Southwest_English @ 5.33
3 63.1% Southwest_French + 36.9% Orcadian @ 5.47
4 54.3% Spanish_Cantabria + 45.7% Southwest_English @ 5.51
5 69% Spanish_Cantabria + 31% West_Norwegian @ 5.53
6 67% Southwest_French + 33% Norwegian @ 5.68
7 68.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 31.9% Norwegian @ 5.73
8 64.5% Spanish_Cantabria + 35.5% Orcadian @ 5.79
9 63.5% Spanish_Cantabria + 36.5% West_Scottish @ 5.89
10 62.5% Spanish_Cantabria + 37.5% Irish @ 5.92
11 62.4% Southwest_French + 37.6% West_Scottish @ 5.94
12 64.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 35.1% North_Dutch @ 5.94
13 53.4% French_Basque + 46.6% Norwegian @ 5.94
14 63.8% Southwest_French + 36.2% North_Dutch @ 5.95
15 58.2% Southwest_French + 41.8% Southeast_English @ 6
16 70% Spanish_Cantabria + 30% Swedish @ 6.03
17 59.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 40.6% Southeast_English @ 6.03
18 61.5% Southwest_French + 38.5% Irish @ 6.05
19 69.1% Southwest_French + 30.9% Swedish @ 6.12
20 54.8% French_Basque + 45.2% West_Norwegian @ 6.17

Plus Welsh are (relatively?) internally different north and south, so you can't even really say they form one distnict cluster.

They were internally different already before the arrival of the Romans.

The Romans described that the Silures, in what is now Southern Wales, had different physical appearance than Celts in Northern Wales.