Bronze Age Sicilians looked nothing like present-day Sicilians

[Token]

It seems there was a complete replacement of native Sicilians by Greek colonists. Most of the ''East-Med'' in Southern Italy seems to be Greek, something I'm defending for a long time. I remember discussing with Sikeliot about it and his insistence that Sicilians had lots of Arabian and post-Roman Levantine ancestry.

He confused East Med admixture with MENA. Sicilians and South Italians are the closest you can get to the Bronze Age Myceneaean and Classical-era Greek samples.

[Nassbean]

what intrigued me is this :

with the exception of an outlier from the third millennium bc, who had primarily North African ancestry and who—along with an approximately contemporary Iberian—documents widespread Africa-to-Europe gene flow in the Chalcolithic.

hahah we're everywhere it's crazy even 5000 years ago there were north african immigrants in iberia and sardinia

[Dorian]

You're assuming ancient Greeks were like modern mainlaind Greeks and it's more than clear nowadays they were not. Greeks were East-Med as one can get. I think ancient mainlanders were like modern people from Crete, Rhodes etc. Also, many Greek settlers in Italy were from Asia Minor and we know ''Greek'' was more of an ethnolinguistic identity than a ''racial one''.
Probably many people with West Asian genetic profiles identified as Greeks in antiquity.

You're assuming a lot as well , what you think is not argument...

[Nassbean]

You're assuming ancient Greeks were like modern mainlaind Greeks and it's more than clear nowadays they were not. Greeks were East-Med as one can get. I think ancient mainlanders were like modern people from Crete, Rhodes etc. Also, many Greek settlers in Italy were from Asia Minor and we know ''Greek'' was more of an ethnolinguistic identity than a ''racial one''.
Probably many people with West Asian genetic profiles identified as Greeks in antiquity.

That's also what I thought when I said to Dorian that greeks from asia minor were probably hellenized anatolians

[Token]

You're assuming a lot as well , what you think is not argument...

We have Myceneaean samples from all over Greece and a Classical era sample from a Greek colony in Empuries. So far they are all most similar to South Italians and Aegean Greeks. What are the chances this is just a coincidence?

[Samnium]

You're assuming ancient Greeks were like modern mainlaind Greeks and it's more than clear nowadays they were not.

They weren't full blown Western Asians for sure, still modeling samples like in this study with a more East Med source (like Myceneans) you wouldn't get Southern Italians. In my opinion the Aegean theory doesn't work because only a tiny part of Southern Italy was under Greek control, you can still say that it eventually propagated to the whole region but there isn't any evidence about that.

You can't assume a shift of an area so large to only "Greeks". Abruzzo had one or two colonies (on the coast), Molise nothing, they are still Southern Italian like in genetics.

In my opinion Byzantine, Arab era (in Sicily), Imperial Roman era, Phoenicians played a great role in that. We don't have even ancient sicilian/southern italian DNA from Iron Age so as far it's only speculation.

Greeks were East-Med as one can get. I think ancient mainlanders were like modern people from Crete, Rhodes etc. Also, many Greek settlers in Italy were from Asia Minor and we know ''Greek'' was more of an ethnolinguistic identity than a ''racial one''.

This is just not true. Colonies of Magna Grecia were predominantly from the Mainland and Ionian Islands. You could say that Magna Grecia becoming a hub in the Med area welcomed many "Western Asians" etc. still the majority of them (inhabitants of these colonies) were ethnic greeks no different from those of Corynthe or Athens.

[dududud]

Only 25 samples?

[Lucas]

Today it was released also paper on ancient Sardinians only.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6

Genetic history from the Middle Neolithic to present on the Mediterranean island of Sardinia

70 samples. There are Nuraghian samples too.

[dududud]

Today it was released also paper on ancient Sardinians only.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6

Genetic history from the Middle Neolithic to present on the Mediterranean island of Sardinia

70 samples. There are Nuraghian samples too.

Samples are available? Where?

[Adamastor]

They weren't full blown Western Asians for sure, still modeling samples like in this study with a more East Med source (like Myceneans) you wouldn't get Southern Italians. In my opinion the Aegean theory doesn't work because only a tiny part of Southern Italy was under Greek control, you can still say that it eventually propagated to the whole region but there isn't any evidence about that.

You can't assume a shift of an area so large to only "Greeks". Abruzzo had one or two colonies (on the coast), Molise nothing, they are still Southern Italian like in genetics.

According to this paper the pre-Iron Age Sicilians disappeared completely. I think it's more than enough to suppose that Greek migrations were the starting point of all the change.

This is just not true. Colonies of Magna Grecia were predominantly from the Mainland and Ionian Islands. You could say that Magna Grecia becoming a hub in the Med area welcomed many "Western Asians" etc. still the majority of them were ethnic greeks no different from those of Corynthe or Athens.

I did not even said most, just that ''many'' were and it's true. Ionia sent many colonies to Southern Italy. People in these forums assume to much without looking at how Greeks themselves viewed these things: someone from Miletus or Pontus was as ''ethnic Greek'' as someone from Athens. Isocrates once said that ''are called Greeks those who participate in our education (paideia) rather than only those who belong to a common race (ethnos)''.