Bell Beaker England vs Bell Beaker France

**Synapsid** · 03-06-2020, 06:21 AM

Target Distance Anatolia_Barcin_N RUS_Maykop UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En WHG
Bell_Beaker_FRA_C:I3874 0.04303478 29.6 0.0 59.6 10.8
Bell_Beaker_England:I67770.03986953 6.0 2.2 83.6 8.2

Average 0.04145216 17.8 1.1 71.6 9.5

We can infer two conclusions from the results:
1) There was greater replacement in the British Isles of the Native Farmer population compared to France
2) That Bronze Age France are more Med than the Brits but are still more NW European than SW European.

https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

**Creoda** · 03-06-2020, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by Synapsid

Target Distance Anatolia_Barcin_N RUS_Maykop UKR_Sredny_Stog_II_En WHG
Bell_Beaker_FRA_C:I3874 0.04303478 29.6 0.0 59.6 10.8
Bell_Beaker_England:I67770.03986953 6.0 2.2 83.6 8.2

Average 0.04145216 17.8 1.1 71.6 9.5

We can infer two conclusions from the results:
1) There was greater replacement in the British Isles of the Native Farmer population compared to France
2) That Bronze Age France are more Med than the Brits but are still more NW European than SW European.

https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

Bell_Beaker_FRA is more Northern than Bell_Beaker_FRA_C from memory.

Code:

Distance to:	Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03245732	Norwegian
0.03601619	Swedish
0.03607039	Icelandic
0.03669143	Dutch
0.03731085	Shetlandic
0.03785972	Irish
0.03795518	Orcadian
0.03839421	Scottish
0.04115684	Welsh
0.04186539	English

Distance to:	Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.02097130	French_Brittany
0.02373724	Welsh
0.02641343	English_Cornwall
0.02659356	Belgian
0.02678887	English
0.02749292	French_Nord
0.02827497	Orcadian
0.02846649	Scottish
0.02879946	French_Paris
0.02999251	German

I think it's reasonable to assume France has varied a lot since the Bell Beakers, and Northern French Beakers were similar to other Northern Beakers. You can still see the state of EBA Northern France in the Bretons with their high Steppe, and clustering more with Brits than with other French.

**Synapsid** · 03-06-2020, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Creoda

Bell_Beaker_FRA is more Northern than Bell_Beaker_FRA_C from memory.

Code:

Distance to:	Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03245732	Norwegian
0.03601619	Swedish
0.03607039	Icelandic
0.03669143	Dutch
0.03731085	Shetlandic
0.03785972	Irish
0.03795518	Orcadian
0.03839421	Scottish
0.04115684	Welsh
0.04186539	English

Distance to:	Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.02097130	French_Brittany
0.02373724	Welsh
0.02641343	English_Cornwall
0.02659356	Belgian
0.02678887	English
0.02749292	French_Nord
0.02827497	Orcadian
0.02846649	Scottish
0.02879946	French_Paris
0.02999251	German

I think it's reasonable to assume France has varied a lot since the Bell Beakers, and Northern French Beakers were similar to other Northern Beakers. You can still see the state of EBA Northern France in the Bretons with their high Steppe, and clustering more with Brits than with other French.

Yeah France was extremely heterogeneous compared early Beaker Britain, Scandinavia and Northern Half of Germany. I am guessing what Changed Britain genetically in the Iron age was perhaps the influx of Gallic like people who brought Insular Celtic languages to Britain and had their greatest impact in Southern Britain while the Midlands, the Pictish areas and Ireland were less impacted?

**Creoda** · 03-06-2020, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by Synapsid

Yeah France was extremely heterogeneous compared early Beaker Britain, Scandinavia and Northern Half of Germany. I am guessing what Changed Britain genetically in the Iron age was perhaps the influx of Gallic like people who brought Insular Celtic languages to Britain and had their greatest impact in Southern Britain while the Midlands, the Pictish areas and Ireland were less impacted?

That's certainly how I see it, but there's still so much mystery and different opinions surrounding the Celtic question. I can't wait for these questions to be better resolved with more ancient DNA.

**Synapsid** · 03-06-2020, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Creoda

That's certainly how I see it, but there's still so much mystery and different opinions surrounding the Celtic question. I can't wait for these questions to be better resolved with more ancient DNA.

Perhaps there were more like Halstatt + Gallic rather than pure Gauls. How southern where southern Celtic Britons compared the Irish?

**Creoda** · 03-06-2020, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Synapsid

Perhaps there were more like Halstatt + Gallic rather than pure Gauls. How southern where southern Celtic Britons compared the Irish?

I think all you have to do is look at people from Cornwall, Devon, Wales, the Welsh Borders, Cumbria and the North East to see approximately what Celtic Britons were like genetically. Southern Britons were noticeably more Southern than the Irish (2-3% more ENF), Northern Britons were probably intermediary of Irish and Southern Britons, having less recent continental input.

**Synapsid** · 03-06-2020, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by Creoda

I think all you have to do is look at people from Cornwall, Devon, Wales, the Welsh Borders, Cumbria and the North East to see approximately what Celtic Britons were like genetically. Southern Britons were noticeably more Southern than the Irish (2-3% more ENF), Northern Britons were probably intermediary of Irish and Southern Britons, having less recent continental input.

Most people I know from Wales still look typically NW Europeans. Not southern looking folks. I know one guy from plymouth who looks kinda french.
https://www.devonlife.co.uk/people/c...ties-1-5312688
https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon...-famous-404923