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Thread: History of the Uralic Languages

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    The reason was apparently lack of numbers and the harsh climate. Northern areas were not equally suitable for farming. People belonging to the first wave moving along the seaside were fur hunters and fishers. Development in farming made it possible later to expand farming to new areas, f. ex. slash and burn method and new corn cultivars. The later wave (600-400 bp) was mainly a result of Swedish politics and new farming methods. The king encouraged people to move and found
    new settlements and farms for two reasons: to get more taxes (although it was not possible immediately) and to avoid Muscovites to do the same. Karelians lived on both sides. Moving to backwoods did not attract western Finns and most of people in the second wave were Karelian.

    The continuation theory is outdated. It was valid only a short time from 1980. It was a misstep and recently not mainstream science.
    Is it safe to say Karelians are more "pure Old Finnic" than Western Finns, as in Western Finns have mixed more with Swedes? Around which time did Western Finns who settled in today's Southern Finland separate from Karelians, and what was their common Urheimat? Wast it in today's Northwest Russia or more closer to today's Estonia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laag View Post
    Yes, Uralic languages are native European languages.
    In like the loosest sense of the word ‘native’ they’ve always existed on the fringes of Europe I call them more like native western Siberians, though granted western Siberia is technically in europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunai View Post
    Is it safe to say Karelians are more "pure Old Finnic" than Western Finns, as in Western Finns have mixed more with Swedes? Around which time did Western Finns who settled in today's Southern Finland separate from Karelians, and what was their common Urheimat? Wast it in today's Northwest Russia or more closer to today's Estonia?
    According archaeological evidences the prehistory was vice versa and Western Finns moved around 1300 years ago to east and founded the Karelian tribe. Later Karelians adopted new habits in the east and Western Finns in the west. Karelian fanatics don't believe in archseology though. In a nutshell, the western community was founded around 300 AD and the eastern one (Karelian) around 700 AD. This is what science tells about. Wikipedia text, a Google translation:



    History of Karelia
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    Karelia is a large area in Northeast Europe, which is currently divided between Finland and Russia. Karelia became a controversial border region in the late 13th century, when Sweden and Novgorod fought for the Karelian dominion of Karelia and Ladoga. Karelia was divided among these kingdoms in 1323, and since then the proximity of the border has strongly influenced the history of different parts of Karelia. Karelia has repeatedly become a war scene until the 20th century. State borders in the region have shifted many times, and many Karelians have been forced to leave their homeland. On the other hand, there have also been peaceful interactions across the border, such as trade and the borrowing of cultural phenomena.

    The population of Karelia has long been of Finnish descent. The roots of the Finnish, Karelian and Vepsälä populations date back to prehistory. The majority population of Russian-owned Karelia is now Russian.

    prehistory Edit
    Main article: Ancient Karelia
    Karelia has been inhabited for 10,000 years. [1] During the Iron Age, the number of archaeological finds dates back to the 7th century. During the Viking and Crusades, the shores of Ladoga and Ääninen already have strong traces of settlement. Korela aka Käkisalmi became a center.

    History of Independent Karelia Edit
    The Karelians are based on the early metal age population of the Kannas, Saimaa and Ladoga regions, [B]which were later influenced by Southwest Finland, Häme and the southern Gulf of Finland. [/B]The archaeological finds of "early Karelia", which originated on the northwest coast of Ladoga, show clear connections with Häme and the western cultural district in the 6th and 8th centuries. Ancient Karelia flourished during the Crusades, and the cultural and political influence of Novgorod intensified in the same area.

    The settlement is believed to have been made up of the indigenous population of the Ladoga area, to which Western Finnish settlement had perhaps moved since the 7th century. According to linguists, at that time (during the Iron Age) "eastern Finnish" or "early Karelian Karelia" was spoken in the Ladoga region, from which both the Karelian language and the southeastern and eastern dialects of Finnish are considered to have developed. [2] [3]

    The Karelians lived on the Karelian isthmus, around the Vyborg Bay and on the western and northern shores of Lake Ladoga. In these areas, the so-called ancient Karelian language was formed, the speakers of which moved to Savo, the shores of Viena and even Northern Ostrobothnia in the late Iron Age and the Middle Ages. [4]

    The beginning of the economic boom of undivided Karelia was in the 9th century, when Karelian traders sold value furs via the Ladoga Castle downstream of the Olhavan River to Novgorod, Kiev and Byzantium, and through the Volga also to Mesopotamia and the Middle East. Via Vyborg to Finland and Sweden. [5]
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    We have very little evidences about a large scale Swedish admixture in the Finnish speaking Finland, it is rather like the source is older and still unknown. Two novel studies (not Finnish) have handled this issue and the source is still unknown. Unfortunately scientists don't see this question attractive and it is still unsolved. On the other hand we need also more light on the Karelian question because the hot spot of Karelian settlements was in the Karelian Isthmus (like in Viipuri) and those areas are occupied by Russians today. Maybe Finnish researchets should dig samples of Karelian WWII refugees from Finland for comparison.
    Last edited by Lemminkäinen; 04-08-2020 at 10:16 AM.

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    In Native American Choctaw language I heard two numbers which sounded very Finnish.

    9 - chakkali, 10 - pokkoli


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    Text from Native American language.

    Mai'ukkuh taputtsi nemekante pottsinukkikinna


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    Quote Originally Posted by mutabor View Post
    Text from Native American language.

    Mai'ukkuh taputtsi nemekante pottsinukkikinna

    Just because to certain ears two languages sound pretty familiar to one another doesn't make them related whatsoever. It is not how language family trees work. It's never about the common sound, but about sharing a significant number of same cognates and also various morphological, grammatical and lexical similarities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunai View Post
    Just because to certain ears two languages sound pretty familiar to one another doesn't make them related whatsoever. It is not how language family trees work. It's never about the common sound, but about sharing a significant number of same cognates and also various morphological, grammatical and lexical similarities.
    Finnish language partially sounds like Swedish language. Languages are different but populations are overlapping. In Volga region Finnic languages sound like Balto-Slavic languages. The reason of it is because long time ago Slavic populations merged into Finnic Volga populations or when Finnic people settled along Volga there were already Slavic populations which were assimilated and they left their influence in terms of how a language sounds.

    Also European languages carry pronunciation patterns of assimilated hunter gatherers and other previous populations. When Indo-Europeans migrated into Europe their languages intermixed with languages of previous populations and new hybrids were born. I think for example that Italians sound more like previous Meditteranian populations rather than Celts who assimilated them.

    Another good example. When people hear Maori Austronesian language they think that it sounds like Japanese language. I'm pretty sure that similarity in pronunciation is not coincidental.

    Last edited by mutabor; 04-25-2020 at 07:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mutabor View Post
    Finnish language partially sounds like Swedish language. Languages are different but populations are overlapping. In Volga region Finnic languages sound like Balto-Slavic languages. The reason of it is because long time ago Slavic populations merged into Finnic Volga populations or when Finnic people settled along Volga there were already Slavic populations which were assimilated and they left their influence in terms of how a language sounds.

    Also European languages carry pronunciation patterns of assimilated hunter gatherers and other previous populations. When Indo-Europeans migrated into Europe their languages intermixed with languages of previous populations and new hybrids were born. I think for example that Italians sound more like previous Meditteranian populations rather than Celts who assimilated them.

    Another good example. When people hear Maori Austronesian language they think that it sounds like Japanese language. I'm pretty sure that similarity in pronunciation is not coincidental.
    I believe you don't understand what relatedness means. It means they originate from common language family. What you described are neighboring languages influencing each other, which is absolutely normal. Since Hungarian existed for over a thousand years surrounded by Slavic and German, then it should sound similar to them, but obviously it sounds nothing like either, even when 30% of our vocabulary was loaned from them. Also there are many languages dispersed throughout the world that may sound similar, but it's a product of random chance. There are around 6000 spoken languages after all.

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    Here you can listen Finnish talk. Loved and hated Jari Sarasvuo and others talking about western culture and Islam.

    https://youtu.be/QMXEapFMq-4

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    I know that this is a drop in bullshit ocean. Some people, actually many in internet, try to argue that the root of Finns is in Russian Karelia. This is an obvious try to mislead people to believe that the Finnish people didn't even exist before crusades or something similar, that they are descentants of Swedes and Karelians. Here is a map of my I1 matches at Ftdna. Familytree Y tests and Big Y tell us that the root of Finnish I1 is in Southern Scandinavia, not in east and not in Central Swedish places where the root of Finland-Swedes is from, but in Scania, Götaland and Denmark. On the map we see a lot Finnish I1 matches in Western and Southwestern Finland, less but obviously in Karelia and very few in Eastern Finland. The clade age of these matches is 2000-2500 years (the whole group).


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