WHG vs Taforalt: Why north africans have morw Hunter Gather ancestry than Euros.

[Nassbean]

I find the idea that both Romans and Vandals had 0 or near 0 impact even locally unlikely, first of all where would Vandals have been expelled to exactly?

I don't know where they went exactly but there is now no doubt that they all left north africa because byzantines were hostile to them especially because of their christian doctrina : arianism which was considered as an heresy by byzantines (Btw they were only 80 000 mainly controlling the eastern part of the maghreb and families living around Carthage)

Does he give any concrete figures?

No that's not really possible

Ok but by 150 CE non-African military presence would have existed for 3 centuries, why wouldn't that have had any effect?

In any case to investigate the quesiton we need more samples from the pre-Roman and Roman period, for all we know Roman and Vandal influence could have existed but have been diluted during the Arab and general medieval period. A lot of inner Mauri lived outside Roman control afterall.

That's not exactly true when Rome defeated Carthage they only took what is now known as tunisia and called it "africa" ...Numidia will be under roman rule in 46 BCE and Mauretania in 44 AD. Moreover you have to know that the whole area was quite peaceful compared to other provinces that's why only one legion was stationed there.

About pre-islamic berbers you have guanches : "Genomic Analyses of Pre-European Conquest Human Remains from the Canary Islands Reveal Close Affinity to Modern North Africans" https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982217312575

so no big changes since then. I will also add this :

The results of this study show that there is a native genetic component that defines North Africans. In-depth study of these markers shows that the people inhabiting North Africa today are not descendants of the earliest occupants of this region fifty thousand years ago, but shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were a group of populations that already lived in the region around thirteen thousand years ago. Furthermore, this local North African genetic component is very different from the one found in the populations in the south of the Sahara, which shows that the ancestors of today's North Africans were members of a subgroup of humanity who left Africa to conquer the rest of the world and who subsequently returned to the north of the continent to settle in the region

source : https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1002397

Here my genetic distances to ancient samples :



close to guanches and punics so we were not really different compared to our ancestors

[SharpFork]

I don't know where they went exactly but there is now no doubt that they all left north africa because byzantines were hostile to them especially because of their christian doctrina : arianism which was considered as an heresy by byzantines (Btw they were only 80 000 mainly controlling the eastern part of the maghreb and families living around Carthage)

Again we have no reason to believe this, 80k people diluting into the populaiton wouldn't be particularly noticeable today, why assume(because ultimately that's what you are doing) that they would have all fled? A golden rule of mine is that we shouldn't assume that an invading population had no genetic effect if we could explain the fact it's not evident by just saying it was small or was diluted/removed later on.

No that's not really possible

But he argues like it is.

That's not exactly true when Rome defeated Carthage they only took what is now known as tunisia and called it "africa" ...Numidia will be under roman rule in 46 BCE and Mauretania in 44 AD. Moreover you have to know that the whole area was quite peaceful compared to other provinces that's why only one legion was stationed there.

Sure but military presence wasn't the only one:

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4wrp2um..._ToC_Intro.pdf

Colonisation of the new region started slowly, but the strategic location
of Carthage led Julius Caesar to re-found the city in 46 BCE, extending
its territory to the south. Colonisation then increased rapidly, and many
Italians and war veterans were settled there, especially during the reign of
the emperor Augustus (r. 27 BCE–14 CE). He handed the administration of
North Africa over to the Senate and a proconsul was appointed to rule the
province (hence the name Africa Proconsularis), with the new Carthage
as capital. One legion was allocated to the province, the Legio III Augusta.

so no big changes since then. I will also add this :

source : https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1002397

We already talked about this, MAR_EN and MAR_LN alone prove that while Iberomaurusian left more ancestry than the WHG did in Europe they still form a minority of the local ancestry in all populations now alive. So I question the "around thirteen thousand years ago" bit. I'd agree if it said 4-5 thousands.
Edit: maybe I'm misunderstanding what the study is saying, I agree that a good amount of the ancestry comes from the Mesolithic, but not most!

close to guanches and punics so we were not really different compared to our ancestors

I question that Sardinia_punic is an actual unmixed Berber sample from the period, it has little Iberomaurisian(between half and a third) admixuture compared to other modern and ancient samples, seems to be that no unmixed Maghrebi sample has less than 20% Iberomaurisian.

BTW what happens if you use this model?

ENF:Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312 ,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437

Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0. 0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537

WHG:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso,0.1225497,0.1120467 ,0.2008793,0.2048907,0.1728527,0.0618207,0.0160593 ,0.0412293,0.108602,0.0271533,-0.0193243,-0.0143373,0.0162043,-0.0086703,0.0708007,0.069035,0.0002173,0.0120353,-0.0099303,0.0637807,0.118,0.0113347,-0.0608843,-0.1971763,0.021994
WHG:Iberia_Northwest_Meso,0.118376,0.088351,0.1621 62,0.17216,0.141565,0.0502,0.007285,0.035075,0.100 626,0.012392,-0.012017,-0.009292,0.022745,-0.00523,0.060531,0.056218,-0.021253,0.012415,-0.007919,0.085291,0.139254,0.024483,-0.068526,-0.254614,0.027662

Levantine_bronze_age:Levant_ISR_MLBA,0.080814,0.14 9283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levantine_bronze_age:Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.14 7929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053

Berber:Iberia_Central_CA_Afr,-0.05122,0.140143,-0.002263,-0.091086,0.0397,-0.047133,-0.036192,0.007384,0.091013,0.044283,0.012179,-0.000899,0.006987,-0.018029,0.020087,-0.016309,0.000652,-0.016596,-0.033561,0.003001,-0.011729,-0.018548,0.013064,-0.009399,0.005987
Berber:Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
Berber:ITA_Sardinia_C_o,-0.086506,0.136081,-0.012068,-0.097869,0.035083,-0.041834,-0.039717,0.003461,0.109011,0.035718,0.008282,-0.010341,0.027205,-0.018441,0.024294,-0.030761,-0.014473,-0.032939,-0.058324,0.012506,-0.013351,-0.045628,0.024526,-0.008676,0.00467
Berber:MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
Berber:MAR_EN,-0.1735805,0.0919055,-0.0258325,-0.083657,0.0283125,-0.0596825,-0.079316,0.021461,0.1500185,0.0043735,0.0222475,-0.0264515,0.075148,-0.0461725,0.069353,-0.03381,0.0171455,-0.05549,-0.1487635,0.0340785,-0.038245,-0.118212,0.0826995,-0.009941,0.021615
Berber:MAR_LN,0.021626,0.148267,0.003394,-0.095285,0.047393,-0.054384,-0.027731,0.008769,0.083855,0.054124,0.020136,0.001 798,0.002973,-0.028901,0.004343,0.009944,0.032726,-0.014062,-0.033938,-5e-04,-0.018343,-0.02201,0.011709,-0.009881,-0.004191

Subsaharan:Yoruba,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
Subsaharan:SDinka,-0.577083,0.0507765,-0.0003773,-0.0075098,-0.0053855,-0.0016735,-0.0176848,0.0204222,0.081145,-0.0969495,-0.02107,0.022742,-0.0383172,-0.0011698,0.0101452,-0.021347,0.0186125,-0.0094382,0.0241968,-0.0241678,0.002402,0.003308,0.001479,0.0009038,0.0 096995

[Nassbean]

Again we have no reason to believe this, 80k people diluting into the populaiton wouldn't be particularly noticeable today, why assume(because ultimately that's what you are doing) that they would have all fled? A golden rule of mine is that we shouldn't assume that an invading population had no genetic effect if we could explain the fact it's not evident by just saying it was small or was diluted/removed later on.

I'm saying this based on what historians says It's not a personal opinion : you have to understand the social context too because at the end of their presence in North africa berbers themselves were in conflict with them and when they settled in the region around carthage there was only them there they didn't lived with the locals but even if you still don't believe me at least we can see that genetically they left no traces in the modern population.

Sure but military presence wasn't the only one:

https://assets.ctfassets.net/4wrp2um..._ToC_Intro.pdf

I've never denied the fact that some italians settled in Africa but they surely weren't enough to impact significantly the north african genetic pool

We already talked about this, MAR_EN and MAR_LN alone prove that while Iberomaurusian left more ancestry than the WHG did in Europe they still form a minority of the local ancestry in all populations now alive. So I question the "around thirteen thousand years ago" bit. I'd agree if it said 4-5 thousands.
Edit: maybe I'm misunderstanding what the study is saying, I agree that a good amount of the ancestry comes from the Mesolithic, but not most!

Yes but you have to know that iberomaurusians were not berbers/proto-berbers ...it was capsians who came from the Near east during the neolithic era who brought a proto-berber culture and they probably mixed with the local Iberomaurusians.

I question that Sardinia_punic is an actual unmixed Berber sample from the period, it has little Iberomaurisian(between half and a third) admixuture compared to other modern and ancient samples, seems to be that no unmixed Maghrebi sample has less than 20% Iberomaurisian.

BTW what happens if you use this model?

Some of them were more mixed than other samples indeed but it already gives a good idea about what kind of genetic profile punics might have had.

Anyway here I tried your model :

Distance to: Nassbean_scaled
0.03890256 Berber:Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.07035651 Berber:Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
0.09128129 Berber:MAR_LN
0.10848640 Berber:ITA_Sardinia_C_o
0.16307955 Levantine_bronze_age:Levant_JOR_EBA
0.16784930 Levantine_bronze_age:Levant_ISR_MLBA
0.19499996 ENF:Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.27920245 Berber:MAR_EN
0.29084425 Berber:MAR_Taforalt
0.30826327 Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.49075288 WHG:Iberia_Northwest_Meso
0.49591656 WHG:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
0.59432530 Subsaharan:SDinka
0.63501664 Subsaharan:Yoruba

Target: Nassbean_scaled
Distance: 2.3410% / 0.02340980
78.8 Berber
11.8 ENF
6.2 Steppe_IE
1.8 Subsaharan
1.4 Levantine_bronze_age

I doubt it's a good model (you mixed samples from different eras) in comparison to this for example :

[Voskos]

Interesting.Might explain why North Africans have a relatively high neanderthal admixture.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e.0047765.t002



https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0047765

[marco]

I'm saying this based on what historians says It's not a personal opinion : you have to understand the social context too because at the end of their presence in North africa berbers themselves were in conflict with them and when they settled in the region around carthage there was only them there they didn't lived with the locals but even if you still don't believe me at least we can see that genetically they left no traces in the modern population.






I've never denied the fact that some italians settled in Africa but they surely weren't enough to impact significantly the north african genetic pool





Yes but you have to know that iberomaurusians were not berbers/proto-berbers ...it was capsians who came from the Near east during the neolithic era who brought a proto-berber culture and they probably mixed with the local Iberomaurusians.




Some of them were more mixed than other samples indeed but it already gives a good idea about what kind of genetic profile punics might have had.

Anyway here I tried your model :

Distance to: Nassbean_scaled
0.03890256 Berber:Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.07035651 Berber:Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
0.09128129 Berber:MAR_LN
0.10848640 Berber:ITA_Sardinia_C_o
0.16307955 Levantine_bronze_age:Levant_JOR_EBA
0.16784930 Levantine_bronze_age:Levant_ISR_MLBA
0.19499996 ENF:Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.27920245 Berber:MAR_EN
0.29084425 Berber:MAR_Taforalt
0.30826327 Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.49075288 WHG:Iberia_Northwest_Meso
0.49591656 WHG:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
0.59432530 Subsaharan:SDinka
0.63501664 Subsaharan:Yoruba

Target: Nassbean_scaled
Distance: 2.3410% / 0.02340980
78.8 Berber
11.8 ENF
6.2 Steppe_IE
1.8 Subsaharan
1.4 Levantine_bronze_age

I doubt it's a good model (you mixed samples from different eras) in comparison to this for example :

My son on that same model

Target: Son_scaled
Distance: 1.5851% / 0.01585086
51.6 Berber
19.4 ENF
13.0 Subsaharan
9.2 Steppe_IE
6.8 Levantine_bronze_age

Distance to:	Son_scaled
0.06116865	Berber:Canary_Islands_Guanche
0.07577080	Berber:Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
0.08668747	Berber:ITA_Sardinia_C_o
0.14252053	Berber:MAR_LN
0.21011321	Levantine_bronze_age:Levant_JOR_EBA
0.21425433	Levantine_bronze_age:Levant_ISR_MLBA
0.24593957	Berber:MAR_EN
0.25239539	ENF:Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.25416463	Berber:MAR_Taforalt
0.34129827	Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.51281863	WHG:Iberia_Northwest_Meso
0.52176800	WHG:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
0.52361523	Subsaharan:SDinka
0.56670678	Subsaharan:Yoruba