Germanic Dorian Invasion of Greece.

[xripkan]

Like I said it's NOT enough to have so few samples from very different places and times and use them to say absolute statement about the genetics of Greeks throughout the Mycenean period and Iron age throughout all of the Greek world.

About the genetic of Greeks during the Mycenaean period we can use absolut statement. Read the proof:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/
About Dorians, maybe we are not 100% sure (we are 99%) but with the data we have and the historic knowledge what else could some hypothetical Dorian samples be if not Mycenaean-like? Amerinidian maybe?

[SharpFork]

About the genetic of Greeks during the Mycenaean period we can use absolut statement. Read the proof:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5565772/
About Dorians, maybe we are not 100% sure (we are 99%) but with the data we have and the historic knowledge what else could some hypothetical Dorian samples be if not Mycenaean-like? Amerinidian maybe?

It could be BGR_IA like, which is different, your "Mycenean-like" includes everything, 5-15% differences in components such as ENF or Steppe are not little.

[xripkan]

It could be BGR_IA like, which is different, your "Mycenean-like" includes everything, 5-15% differences in components such as ENF or Steppe are not little.

Actually I suspect that Ancient Greeks in Northern Greece could be like this sample:

DEU_MA_o:STR_300,0.125205,0.165531,-0.001886,-0.05491,0.024004,-0.015339,0.009165,0.010384,0.003681,0.029887,0.003 41,-0.000599,-0.009663,-0.006331,-0.029044,-0.005304,0.002868,-0.004814,-0.002765,-0.016758,-0.007237,0.009645,0.008381,0.00253,-0.004191

It plots between Mycenaeans and BGR_IA (closer to BGR_IA). BGR_IA has a shift to West Med peoples which is not obvious to this sample. Maybe Dorians were like this sample.

[SharpFork]

Actually I suspect that Ancient Greeks in Northern Greece could be like this sample:

DEU_MA_o:STR_300,0.125205,0.165531,-0.001886,-0.05491,0.024004,-0.015339,0.009165,0.010384,0.003681,0.029887,0.003 41,-0.000599,-0.009663,-0.006331,-0.029044,-0.005304,0.002868,-0.004814,-0.002765,-0.016758,-0.007237,0.009645,0.008381,0.00253,-0.004191

It plots between Mycenaeans and BGR_IA (closer to BGR_IA). BGR_IA has a shift to West Med peoples which is not obvious to this sample. Maybe Dorians were like this sample.

...that's a German medieval sample?

[xripkan]

...that's a German medieval sample?

This is an outlier. it is found in 5th century Bavaria. There are different opinions about the origin. Either from Greece or from Ancient Balkans. Actually it plots near to Ancient Greek samples but has more Steppe (close to BGR_IA). It could be a mix of Greeks and Thracians.

[SharpFork]

This is an outlier. it is found in 5th century Bavaria. There are different opinion about the origin. Either from Greece or from Ancient Balkans. Actually it plots near to Ancient Greek samples but has more Steppe (close to BGR_IA). It could be a mix of Greeks and Thracians.

I mean I hope you can see where I am coming from, having 7 samples for about a millenia of history in Greece and Bulgaria is far from ideal, given we have to rely to anachronistic sample in another entire part of Europe.

[xripkan]

Isn't it Italian(SW)-like?

No, they don't seem to have such admixture.

[Tauromachos]

Ancient Greeks were possibly somewhat different but much less than modern Greeks.

This ,diversity rather increased than decrease throughout the ages

However still today most Greek groups are fairly close to one another and the basic most relevant parts of their ancestry are same or come from similar sources

[JohnnyP]

[7] "The tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division."

[9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence."

[10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically."

[11] "There is no archeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk traditions about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece.

[12] "The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians may be more ingenious than convincing, resting uncomfortably on myth and conjecture."

-Eugene Borza
Professor of Ancient History at the Pennsylvania State University.

Please this guys who calling themselfs Greeks , needs to stop with all nonsense.

[Tauromachos]

[7] "The tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division."

[9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence."

[10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically."

[11] "There is no archeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk traditions about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece.

[12] "The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians may be more ingenious than convincing, resting uncomfortably on myth and conjecture."

-Eugene Borza
Professor of Ancient History at the Pennsylvania State University.

Please this guys who called themselfs Greeks , needs to stop with all nonsense.

The Dorians were ancient Slavo Makedoniczski named after their forefather Doroslav Epiric