Germanic Dorian Invasion of Greece.

[xripkan]

If it is irrelevant to Ancient Greeks why do you post it?

The discussion here was mainly about Dorians and if or how different they were from other Ancient Greek groups
Mycanaeans,Ionians or whatever

I just said to SharpFork that the fact that Modern Greeks are different it does not mean ancient Greeks were also different. You started the conversation based on that. If you think we should not talk about that why did you start?

[Tauromachos]

I just said to SharpFork that the fact that Modern Greeks are different it does not mean ancient Greeks were also different. You started the conversation based on that. If you think we should not talk about that why did you start?

No i was basicly agreeing to you

I just added that modern Greeks aren't even that different"thats were the basic misunderstanding lies between us" so how different could
ancient Greeks have been then when they were certainly less different than modern Greeks today

It didn't meant there is no real differences between modern Greeks from different regions of course there are

[SharpFork]

Modern Greeks aren't similar at all, Cypriots are closer to northern Levantines than to any other Greek, Pontic Greeks similarly are closer to many Near-Eastern populations than any Greek, Aegeans Greeks are closer to Southern Italians before they are close to northern Greeks.

Using bronze and iron age samples, this how Greeks look as a mixture of those populations, I even included Bronze Anatolians and the Iron Age Thracian in the Greek one:

[xripkan]

Modern Greeks aren't similar at all, Cypriots are closer to northern Levantines than to any other Greek, Pontic Greeks similarly are closer to many Near-Eastern populations than any Greek, Aegeans Greeks are closer to Southern Italians before they are close to northern Greeks.

Using bronze and iron age samples, this how Greeks look as a mixture of those populations, I even included Bronze Anatolians and the Iron Age Thracian in the Greek one:

Which references did you use?

[SharpFork]

Which references did you use?

Spoiler!

Greek+Anatolian:GRC_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
Greek+Anatolian:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.17 0609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
Greek+Anatolian:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.11837 6,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
Greek+Anatolian:BGR_IA,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Isparta_EBA,0.114582,0.15 90993,-0.040226,-0.0802117,-0.004411,-0.024728,7.83e-05,-0.003846,-0.0115897,0.0329847,0.0068207,0.003497,-0.012686,-0.003257,-0.0225297,0.0032263,0.0214267,-0.0024493,0.0070393,-0.0007087,-0.0044507,-0.003215,0.000575,-0.003213,-0.0022353
Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA,0.0990263,0.1 51991,-0.0452547,-0.0812883,-0.0043087,-0.022776,-0.0019583,-0.0081533,-0.0088627,0.027457,0.0073077,0.0044463,-0.0130327,-0.0065143,-0.0147933,-0.000442,0.0126037,0.003801,0.0043577,-0.0017507,0.0003327,0.0055233,-0.0028757,0.0011247,-0.0024747

Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0 .057494,0.0373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.00429 5,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305, 0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736
Slavic:CZE_Early_Slav,0.12862,0.129988,0.068259,0. 046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706

Caucasian:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan,0.1092705,0.1284645,-0.0637335,-0.043282,-0.0460085,-0.004044,0.0110455,-0.007615,-0.06013,-0.0226885,0.0047905,0.008842,-0.0127105,0.0052985,0.0080755,6.65e-05,0.01017,-0.0001265,-0.0030795,-0.0010005,0.00992,-0.007728,0.001417,-0.0005425,-0.0002395
Caucasian:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535

Levantine:Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA,0.0921967,0.1462 363,-0.061722,-0.0915167,-0.0139513,-0.0366277,0.0032117,-0.008846,0.0072263,0.012635,0.015535,-0.015736,0.018781,0.0088997,-0.0078717,0.008972,-0.0043027,0.0013093,-0.0006287,-0.0070033,0.0020797,0.000371,-0.00608,0.002812,0.003832
Levantine:Levant_ISR_MLBA,0.080814,0.149283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levantine:Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053

[xripkan]

Spoiler!

Greek+Anatolian:GRC_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
Greek+Anatolian:GRC_Minoan_Lassithi,0.1192866,0.17 0609,-0.0181772,-0.093993,0.0295438,-0.0398256,-0.001316,-0.0034614,0.0103488,0.0598102,0.0029878,0.0153164,-0.0251238,-5.48e-05,-0.0374586,-0.0109518,0.0173934,-0.0012414,0.0088742,-0.0136316,-0.0133764,0.0083836,-0.0050776,-0.0010604,-0.0024428
Greek+Anatolian:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.11837 6,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
Greek+Anatolian:BGR_IA,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861

Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Isparta_EBA,0.114582,0.15 90993,-0.040226,-0.0802117,-0.004411,-0.024728,7.83e-05,-0.003846,-0.0115897,0.0329847,0.0068207,0.003497,-0.012686,-0.003257,-0.0225297,0.0032263,0.0214267,-0.0024493,0.0070393,-0.0007087,-0.0044507,-0.003215,0.000575,-0.003213,-0.0022353
Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
Greek+Anatolian:Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA,0.0990263,0.1 51991,-0.0452547,-0.0812883,-0.0043087,-0.022776,-0.0019583,-0.0081533,-0.0088627,0.027457,0.0073077,0.0044463,-0.0130327,-0.0065143,-0.0147933,-0.000442,0.0126037,0.003801,0.0043577,-0.0017507,0.0003327,0.0055233,-0.0028757,0.0011247,-0.0024747

Slavic:HUN_Avar_Szolad,0.133742,0.12948,0.073727,0 .057494,0.0373915,0.029144,0.0094,0.007269,0.00429 5,-0.018224,-0.001543,-0.006369,0.0102575,0.017753,-0.0138435,0.0007295,0.0002605,0.0034205,0.0055305, 0.001313,0,-0.002782,0.010846,-0.0069285,0.001736
Slavic:CZE_Early_Slav,0.12862,0.129988,0.068259,0. 046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.014076,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706

Caucasian:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan,0.1092705,0.1284645,-0.0637335,-0.043282,-0.0460085,-0.004044,0.0110455,-0.007615,-0.06013,-0.0226885,0.0047905,0.008842,-0.0127105,0.0052985,0.0080755,6.65e-05,0.01017,-0.0001265,-0.0030795,-0.0010005,0.00992,-0.007728,0.001417,-0.0005425,-0.0002395
Caucasian:Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps,0.1013025,0.133034,-0.07071,-0.043605,-0.0498555,-0.0092035,0.008108,-0.011653,-0.066368,-0.01631,0.0030855,0.011015,-0.019846,0.005849,0.0042075,-0.0102095,-0.0001305,-0.003927,-0.001697,0.0032515,0.003494,-0.000247,-0.0036975,-0.0090975,-0.0030535

Levantine:Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA,0.0921967,0.1462 363,-0.061722,-0.0915167,-0.0139513,-0.0366277,0.0032117,-0.008846,0.0072263,0.012635,0.015535,-0.015736,0.018781,0.0088997,-0.0078717,0.008972,-0.0043027,0.0013093,-0.0006287,-0.0070033,0.0020797,0.000371,-0.00608,0.002812,0.003832
Levantine:Levant_ISR_MLBA,0.080814,0.149283,-0.046009,-0.103683,-0.012618,-0.036256,-0.00564,-0.008769,0.00859,0.014579,0.01088,-0.007044,0.01665,0.004542,-0.012215,0.012198,0.002477,0.008742,0.006285,0.013 506,0.015348,0.013973,-0.013557,-0.001205,-0.004431
Levantine:Levant_JOR_EBA,0.0758823,0.147929,-0.0599623,-0.11402,-0.0056417,-0.0476903,-0.0108887,-0.013307,0.0336783,0.0075323,0.0157517,-0.0196823,0.041526,-0.0008717,-0.0031217,0.0228937,0.0018253,0.0010137,-0.0030583,0.0170917,0.0050743,0.011706,-0.0038617,0.0042577,-0.0071053

These references are not Anatolian. Anatolian peoples of classic Antiquity (Iron Age) and Byzantine era were quite different genetically. Actually these references are partly Mycenaean-like.

[SharpFork]

These references are not Anatolian. Anatolian peoples of classic Antiquity (Iron Age) and Byzantine era were quite different genetically. Actually these references are partly Mycenaean-like.

Stop with this "Mycenean-like" bullshit, they were not Mycenean like:

Spoiler!

ENF:Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312 ,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
ENF:MKD_N:I0676,0.122929,0.182795,-0.000754,-0.103037,0.063704,-0.046296,-0.00376,-0.001385,0.046222,0.090571,0.01153,0.014837,-0.031516,0.003303,-0.042073,-0.011535,0.024251,0.005448,0.013701,-0.012006,-0.016346,0.011623,0.001109,0.00494,-0.007664
ENF:GRC_N:I5427,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
ENF:ROU_N:I2533,0.126344,0.187873,0.010936,-0.102068,0.060319,-0.055778,0.003055,-0.005769,0.044586,0.095492,0.001299,0.012589,-0.027948,-0.001376,-0.050488,-0.006762,0.034421,-0.000507,0.008547,-0.013381,-0.014974,0.007048,-0.003944,0.005904,-0.011137

Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0. 0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash,0.122929,0.08632,0. 039598,0.10756,-0.020619,0.046854,0.000705,-0.010384,-0.059107,-0.070525,-0.00682,0.002698,-0.005798,-0.027525,0.040445,0.0179,0.002868,-0.005954,-0.006662,0.009379,-0.011105,-0.003833,0.008874,0.026269,-0.00958
Steppe_IE:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia,0.115189,0.092007,0 .0465368,0.1129864,-0.0276358,0.0420566,0.004371,-0.003646,-0.0539944,-0.0743522,-0.000942,0.0004496,-0.001011,-0.023616,0.0278496,0.0116148,0.0012254,-0.002559,0.0007542,0.0102548,-0.0042426,0.0005688,0.016244,0.0230152,-0.0035446
Steppe_IE:RUS_Afanasievo,0.1238692,0.0885718,0.041 1719,0.1122644,-0.0310693,0.0459564,0.0025033,-0.0017458,-0.058058,-0.077284,-0.0001412,-0.000189,-0.001325,-0.020392,0.0384738,0.0086529,-0.0092743,-0.0023906,-0.0035742,0.0096623,-0.0059515,0.0015913,0.013043,0.0233243,-0.0027958
Steppe_IE:RUS_Poltavka,0.1265063,0.087916,0.045631 6,0.1127279,-0.0251916,0.0459373,0.0048009,0.0003299,-0.053965,-0.0739619,0.002807,-0.0008994,0.0002973,-0.020152,0.033077,0.0128611,-0.0052899,-0.0019727,-0.0022626,0.0098974,-0.0050089,0.0029499,0.0127297,0.0193486,-0.0038833
Steppe_IE:RUS_Catacomb,0.1180912,0.0891127,0.04214 32,0.1069942,-0.03039,0.0482478,0.0027612,-0.0038075,-0.0572155,-0.0747625,0.0011772,0.0043085,0.0003342,-0.01999,0.035864,0.0046075,-0.0101375,-9.5e-05,-0.0035195,0.0100985,-0.0004058,0.0012982,0.0130953,0.0220512,-0.0058078

WHG:ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso,0.1225497,0.1120467 ,0.2008793,0.2048907,0.1728527,0.0618207,0.0160593 ,0.0412293,0.108602,0.0271533,-0.0193243,-0.0143373,0.0162043,-0.0086703,0.0708007,0.069035,0.0002173,0.0120353,-0.0099303,0.0637807,0.118,0.0113347,-0.0608843,-0.1971763,0.021994
WHG:Iberia_Northwest_Meso,0.118376,0.088351,0.1621 62,0.17216,0.141565,0.0502,0.007285,0.035075,0.100 626,0.012392,-0.012017,-0.009292,0.022745,-0.00523,0.060531,0.056218,-0.021253,0.012415,-0.007919,0.085291,0.139254,0.024483,-0.068526,-0.254614,0.027662
WHG:I1875,0.130897,0.120848,0.191577,0.194447,0.15 9107,0.048248,0.015746,0.040152,0.087332,0.007472,-0.016076,-0.015436,0.017839,-0.003303,0.047909,0.047069,0.007302,0.018497,-0.003268,0.057027,0.087471,0.00915,-0.048436,-0.143153,0.01449
WHG:Rochedane,0.118376,0.111708,0.178001,0.184111, 0.150182,0.044623,0.010575,0.034383,0.090809,0.028 064,-0.014615,-0.016186,0.013974,-0.002752,0.058767,0.069344,0.002738,0.014189,-0.015335,0.054151,0.101446,0.013231,-0.050778,-0.178579,0.019519
WHG:England_Mesolithic,0.126344,0.110693,0.202891, 0.197031,0.157876,0.055778,0.010575,0.03346,0.0865 14,0.016583,-0.017863,-0.01139,0.014866,-0.001651,0.061481,0.065499,0.002477,0.009882,-0.005531,0.06353,0.116295,0.019661,-0.055954,-0.179664,0.019399
WHG:Wales_Meso,0.1160995,0.1157705,0.187806,0.1954 16,0.1629535,0.0642845,0.0243235,0.030691,0.091524 5,0.010023,-0.020055,-0.0059945,0.0049805,-0.0015825,0.061617,0.0646375,-0.001043,0.010135,-0.0043995,0.0596535,0.1056885,0.0183625,-0.047327,-0.175386,0.017783
WHG:BEL_Loschbour,0.133173,0.106631,0.20176,0.1921 86,0.164338,0.055778,0.00611,0.036922,0.096535,0.0 2278,-0.020786,-0.016186,0.024975,-0.007432,0.065824,0.063643,0.008084,0.006714,-0.013324,0.065281,0.120038,0.019166,-0.059405,-0.175687,0.022992
WHG:ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184 111,0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0 .018041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928

Iranian:IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
Iranian:IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,0.0421147,0.063978 3,-0.1541163,0.0010767,-0.119407,0.0212883,0.0104187,-0.0023077,-0.0809913,-0.057283,-0.002436,-0.002148,0.0040137,-0.0096337,0.0314873,0.0555107,-0.0067363,0.0061233,0.0131143,-0.0351837,0.0062807,-0.0250607,-0.0085453,-0.0374753,0.019958
Iranian:IRN_Wezmeh_N,0.037562,0.072103,-0.165556,-0.016473,-0.11756,0.01506,0.017861,-0.003231,-0.071583,-0.046835,0.003085,-0.003147,0.00669,0.000688,0.022122,0.053036,-0.011735,0.001014,0.014581,-0.035267,0.009358,-0.023741,-0.006655,-0.032896,0.019998
Iranian:IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso,0.052359,0.064994,-0.124073,0.043282,-0.112636,0.019522,0.003995,-0.007615,-0.071992,-0.053031,0.009906,0.008842,0.001933,-0.017616,0.030673,0.055157,0.004824,-0.010769,0.010559,-0.029389,0.001123,-0.013231,-0.00493,-0.022413,0.025507

Iranian:GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036

Iranian:Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287

The "Iranian" label ought to be "Near Eastern" or somethnig like that.

[SharpFork]

These references are not Anatolian. Anatolian peoples of classic Antiquity (Iron Age) and Byzantine era were quite different genetically. Actually these references are partly Mycenaean-like.

Also we have no actual samples from Iron age(outside one East Eurasian admixed one) or Byzantine Anatolia, but apparently you magically know they were quite different, according to god knows what.

[xripkan]

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[xripkan]

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