What happened to the germanic people in Spain?

[Switchedon20]

You'd thought that after the fall of the Roman Empire and the subsequent movement of Germanic tribes from North to South and West Europe, the Visigoths would have taken over the whole of what is now modern day Spain. They established their own kingdom, which lasted 300 years before the Moors from North Africa took over. Nonetheless, the Visigoth culture dissapeared over time. If the Moors never conquered that region until they were finally kicked out many centuries later by the Spanish, would Spain be considered a Germanic country in this day and age?

[MinervaItalica]

Depends how much Visigoths would have lasted even without Moors invasion. Even so, i don't think Visigoths would mixed enough with locals to say that Spain would have been "Germanic" they were a minority after all compared to natives and mostly elite related.

[Ülev]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germanic_languages

Lugii = Vandali


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples
so...



and R1b l-51

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/...-l51-basal.png

L-51 -East Germanic haplo

[Tietar]

You'd thought that after the fall of the Roman Empire and the subsequent movement of Germanic tribes from North to South and West Europe, the Visigoths would have taken over the whole of what is now modern day Spain. They established their own kingdom, which lasted 300 years before the Moors from North Africa took over. Nonetheless, the Visigoth culture dissapeared over time. If the Moors never conquered that region until they were finally kicked out many centuries later by the Spanish, would Spain be considered a Germanic country in this day and age?

What culture? Eating sausages and drinking beer?

In Spain we eat sausages and drink beer

Better read something that has a certain foundation, not opinions of users who do not know absolutely anything, this is a google traslation of a article by a professor


Don Pelayo, the missing link in the continuity of the kingdom of Spain

The word Reconquista appears, for the first time, in the romantic-liberal historiography of the 19th century. But when is the concept of Reconquista historically assumed? When is the epic anti-Muslim discourse that we call Reconquest built? The concept is late, it dates from the beginning of the 10th century. It does not appear until the Chronicle of Alfonso III. The military triumphs of this king would credit the prophetic belief that the recovery of Spain would take place soon.

It is then when the restorationist vocation of the lost goticism arises and until then only regretted, when Pelayo and Covadonga (salus Hispaniae) appear as the missing link that was so much needed between the Guadalete and the restorationist dreams, "that for this mound you see, it is Spain saved and repaired the army of the goths ".

The ideological discourse of the Mozarabs and the Astur-Leoneses is different from each other. Those nostalgic for the loss of Spain are not the same as the restorers of that Spain. Mozarabism is not, in light of the latest research, the source that will feed the anti-Muslim resistance gothicism, the religious reserve that would stimulate the reconquering spirit.

The concept of 'Reconquista' is late, dating from the beginning of the 10th century, when it appears in Alfonso III's 'Chronicle'.

The Mozarabs were more connected to the eastern Muslim world than to the resistant Christians of northern Spain. The idea of ​​the Asturian-Leonese monarchy as heir to the Toledo Visigoth and intended to rebuild the lost unity of Spain is an ideological construction of the learned clergy of the late ninth and tenth centuries, which sought, above all, to justify the ambitions of the first Astur-Leonese kings.

But who was Pelayo? The first references date from the year 812, but do not provide information about the character. The Mozarabs do not echo it. It is from the 10th century when, parallel to the construction of the idea of ​​the Reconquest, he became a noble Goth, a victim of Witiza, a high official in the service of Don Rodrigo, who had been imprisoned in Córdoba and later a refugee in Asturias.

The myth develops, especially, in the 12th century. The chronicler Don Pelayo de Oviedo, at the beginning of this century, considers that the Goths found a good refuge in Asturias, "they chose this place for themselves and especially in suffrage for the saints." Gothicism of the 13th century, with Jiménez de Rada at the helm, will establish Pelayo's Visigoth status. A kind of Visigothic Noah.

This, coming from the Court of Toledo, leads the Goths who, fleeing from the Saracen invasion, become strong in the Asturian mountains and establish the Asturian-Leonese dynasty and subsequently Castilian. Alfonso X made him a descendant of King Chindasvinto.
Thirty hungry men

Also, for Muslims it was goth. Of course, the Muslim chronicles despise the meaning of Covadonga: "thirty hungry men who feed on the honey that the bees make on the rocks." Ibn Hayyan will call Pelayo "the despicable barbarian Belay".

The concept of the Reconquest as a recovery of the lost Hispania in the name of the old Gothic legitimacy will be resumed by the Catholic Monarchs and their chronicler Fernando del Pulgar, and will be repeated ad nauseam in the 17th century. José Micheli y Márquez, Baron of San Demetrio, will write in 1648 The Catholic Phoenix Don Pelayo, the restorer reborn from the ashes of King Witiza and Don Rodrigo, destroyer of Spain, uniting the restorer with the loser of Spain, and José Pellicer will publish, in 1681, Annales de la Monarquía de España after his loss, insisting on the goticism of the restorative Pelayo.

In the 16th century Covadonga is located as the starting point of the kingdoms of Spain

In the face of official goticism, in the 16th and 17th centuries, the indigenist historical version will progressively prosper, making Pelayo Asturian. Garibay, in his History of Spain, in the 16th century, will make Pelayo Basque-Cantabrian. The Asturianism of the 17th century (Luis Alfonso de Carvallo) assigns that condition to it.

Carvallo carries out a history of Asturias (Antiquities and memorable things in Spain), with Covadonga as the starting point for the restoration of Spain and Asturias as the matrix of the kingdoms of Spain:

"It seems to me that after the general deluge of blood, God wanted to put this sign of the cross giving Christians to understand that he had already enchanted the sword of his divine justice and opened the bowels of his mercy so that they would come to rule the earth, showing them like another Constantine, the flag with which he is going to defeat his enemies ". Francisco de la Sota, in the same context, will make him Cantabrian. Pelayo would come from the ancient king of Asturias.

In the second part of the Guzmán de Alfarache, a Biscayan servant defends the Biscayan and not Gothic origin of Pelayo, which provokes the protest of the master of Guzmán that "the Spanish kings, through Pelayo, descend directly from the Goths". Goticism and indigenism face to face.
Jovellanos, Moratín, Cadalso

In the 18th century it will return to the Visigothic Pelayo. Significantly, one of its promoters was Father Flórez, who in his Sacred Spain will be the first to publish the great Asturian-Leonese chronicles. Jovellanos will mythologize Pelayo as a great national hero against Munuza, the Muslim governor of Gijón. It combines Spanish patriotism with specifically Asturian. Moratín wrote a play about Hermosinda, Don Pelayo's sister.

Cadalso consolidates the gothic roots of the Reconquest: "The Spanish Goths fled to the mountains of a province today called Asturias and they barely had time to discard the shock, learn of their ignorance, mourn the loss of their homes and ruin of their kingdom, when they returned to go out commanded by Pelayo, one of the greatest men that nature has produced. From here a theater of wars that lasted about eight centuries opens.

Several kingdoms rose on the ruins of the Spanish Goda monarchy, destroying the one that the Moors wanted to build on the same land, watered with more Spanish, Roman, Carthaginian, Goda and Moorish blood than can be weighed with horror from the pen that write and from the eyes that see it written.

In the 19th century it will be sublimated by Modesto Lafuente and liberal historiography

But the population of this peninsula was such that after such long and bloody wars, there were still twenty million inhabitants in it. Incorporating so many different provinces in two crowns, that of Castilla and Aragon, and both in the marriage of Don Fernando and Doña Isabel, princes who will be immortal among those who know what government is. "

In the 19th century the Reconquest will be sublimated by Modesto Lafuente and liberal historiography as the recovery of lost Spain. Pelayo chosen? What were Pelayo's rights?

The subject is of great importance in determining whether there is an original Asturian-Leonese constitutionalism. Historical rights of the Gothic king or delegation of power of the people in him? Absolute or constitutional king? The problem will play out when it comes to building a primitive Castilian constitutionalism as Pellicer tries to do in the 17th century and will be restated by Martínez Marina and Alcalá Galiano in the XIX.
Restoration: The Covadonga myth grows stronger

Within the framework of the Restoration of the monarchy of Alfonso XII, the myth of Covadonga and the idea of ​​recovery of Spain will be relaunched more than ever. The Visigoths are considered the axis of Spanish nationality and Pelayo would be the preserver of that identity. In 1918, an entire operation to evoke the alleged XII Centennial of the battle was built. A multitude of works on Pelayo and Covadonga were published. Francoism will ratify the Gothic myth of Pelayo that Sánchez Albornoz had institutionalized.

Only Abilio Barbero and Marcelo Vigil, in the volume of medieval history of the History of Spain, directed by Artola (1974), would invoke indigenous or Asturian roots in Don Pelayo, stripping the Visigoths of their character as pioneers of the Reconquest.

This would be, according to them, the result of a process of expansion of the northern peoples, who would only find the source of Gothic legitimation in the 10th century. Asturias was a very little Romanized and Visigotized territory. Covadonga, a simple skirmish between highlanders and some Muslim expedition, would be nothing but an interested myth to endow the Reconquest with a starting point. In recent years, the Gothic substrate seems to be reestablished at the origins of the Reconquest. Penelope's history as a loom that is built and rebuilt cyclically.

https://www.elmundo.es/la-aventura-d...65a8b4591.html

[gixajo]

No, the Visigoths were just a minority Germanic ruling elite, they barely mixed in Spain and were numbered like 1000 or something I've heard, they later converted to Islam in return for land and titles, and the bulk of the inhabitants of Al-Andalus were dark Iberians themselves who also converted and carried on life as usual.

The Visigoths went their separate ways, under Muslim, Frankish or (their own) Asturian rule, one of the early rulers of Muslim Spain was three-quarters Visigoth in descent. His mother was a pure Visigoth, and his father was half-Visigoth, having also had a Visigoth mother.

If you are talking about Banu Qasi, is precisely a good example to explain how high class Visigoth mixed with local elites, first gallo-romans and then arabs. The low visigoth social class, mixed widely also with local population, and the nowadays Spanish genetic inheritance shows it. Visigoths were not 1000 persons , but 100-300 thousand people, or about 5% of that times total population of Iberian peninsula.

[Altaison]

I guess Northern Spain assimilated them. Northern Spain may be lighter than Southerners for a reason beside celtiberian admixture. For example, Xabi Alonso looks very Germanic to me.

[Samnium]

If you are talking about Banu Qasi, is precisely a good example to explain how high class Visigoth mixed with local elites, first gallo-romans and then arabs. The low visigoth social class, mixed widely also with local population, and the nowadays Spanish genetic inheritance shows it. Visigoths were not 1000 persons , but 100-300 thousand people, or about 5% of that times total population of Iberian peninsula.

Introduction of Steppe ancestry in Iberia isn't from Visigoths but much more older than that. Visigoths might had a minor effect though.

I think there are probably also some people with hidden Jewish ancestry in Spain but I haven't seen one honestly (on genetical tests), but must be quite rare.

[Token]

Visigoths were assimilated and lost their distinct identity.

[Kamal900]

Introduction of Steppe ancestry in Iberia isn't from Visigoths but much more older than that. Visigoths might had a minor effect though.

I think there are probably also some people with hidden Jewish ancestry in Spain but I haven't seen one honestly (on genetical tests), but be quite rare.

The Visigoths weren't really a large minority group in Spain who had been mostly the ruling elite of Iberia which is true for the Arabs as well. The steppe ancestry most likely were brought by the Bell Beaker culture of Central Europe among other things, and one can look at the Y-DNA of current Iberians and compare them to the neolithic Iberians who make up around half of their overall genome.

[gixajo]

Introduction of Steppe ancestry in Iberia isn't from Visigoths but much more older than that. Visigoths might had a minor effect though.

I think there are probably also some people with hidden Jewish ancestry in Spain but I haven't seen one honestly (on genetical tests), but must be quite rare.

Same as Northafrican ancestry, we cannot separate it adequately ancient and moderns inputs. But our admixture comes form both ages and deny this is clearly try to fake reality, for those who deny admixture with NA and for those who deny the Germanic input during Visigothic rule.