Transylvanian/Romanian GEDmatch Results

[aherne]

Romania is a big country, what's the point of comparing Transylvanian Hungarians with Romanian average? Transylvanian Hungarians are closer to Northern Moldovans (from Romania, not RM) than to Hungarian average. This make perfect sense from a historical standpoint, because Transylvanian Hungarians are from Northern Transylvania (former Maramures principality), which is the province that colonized Moldova.

These oracles are pure bullshit IDK why you guys bother with them: until they start to align with historical evidence, no time should be wasted on them

[Universe]

These oracles are pure bullshit IDK why you guys bother with them: until they start to align with historical evidence, no time should be wasted on them

What's bullshit about them? How are they not aligned with historical evidences? What is it that you don't believe? You really think Transylvanian Germans didn't mix with anyone at all in Romania, even though they have been there for 800 years? Even White South Africans have mixed blacks and coloreds in south africa, dna tests show that.
Or you don't believe Hungarians are not same as Romanians in Transylvania? They're similar, just not 100% the same.

[aherne]

What's bullshit about them? How are they not aligned with historical evidences?

I used Hungarians' case to prove my point: Magyar ancestry is minimized to oblivion by these oracles, but racial evidence shows it significant enough as we go east (Hungarians from Transylvania, Szekelers in particular, have more individuals looking Magyar than those living in Slovakia for example). This aligns with EAST-WEST move of Magyars from Southern Bessarabia to Pannonian Plains

You really think Transylvanian Germans didn't mix with anyone at all in Romania, even though they have been there for 800 years?

Never claimed that... I claimed that Hungarians from Transylvania didn't mix that much with Germans due to religious as well as cultural reasons (Germans being concentrated in their own areas that were generally free of Hungarians)

Or you don't believe Hungarians are not same as Romanians in Transylvania? They're similar, just not 100% the same.

I fully agree. Of course they are not the same: occasional presence of Magyar look makes them different. Lack of admixture throughout last millennia (until WW1) also made them a bit different. But the basis remains the same: that's my whole point...

[ixulescu]

These oracles are pure bullshit IDK why you guys bother with them: until they start to align with historical evidence, no time should be wasted on them

While the reference populations are trash, the relative distances are real. Just that people should understand that ranking based on small distances can completely change with different sampling.

[Universe]

I used Hungarians' case to prove my point: Magyar ancestry is minimized to oblivion by these oracles, but racial evidence shows it significant enough as we go east (Hungarians from Transylvania, Szekelers in particular, have more individuals looking Magyar than those living in Slovakia for example). This aligns with EAST-WEST move of Magyars from Southern Bessarabia to Pannonian Plains



Never claimed that... I claimed that Hungarians from Transylvania didn't mix that much with Germans due to religious as well as cultural reasons (Germans being concentrated in their own areas that were generally free of Hungarians)



I fully agree. Of course they are not the same: occasional presence of Magyar look makes them different. Lack of admixture throughout last millennia (until WW1) also made them a bit different. But the basis remains the same: that's my whole point...

Phenotypes can be a bit random. Often minimal amount of mongoloid can greatly influence someone's look. It could be that European genes are recessive when mixed with Asians or Blacks. Chris the hungarian user (now inactive) is 98% European and 2% Asian on DNA tests but looks like he's 15-20% Mongoloid. I remember his first classification thread here, a user from Russia said Chris looks like a Volga Tatar, I agree with that. Btw he's half Székely, the other half is from southeast Hungary.

I don't think dna tests underestimate the Mongoloid in Hungarians. Some hungarians' appearance look turanid influenced, but you also find hungarians that don't show any turanid at all.

I fully agree. Of course they are not the same: occasional presence of Magyar look makes them different. Lack of admixture throughout last millennia (until WW1) also made them a bit different. But the basis remains the same: that's my whole point...

Both Hungarians and Romanians are genetically similar to their neighbors, like every other European ethnicity.

[aherne]

While the reference populations are trash, the relative distances are real.

I love science and I try to apply a scientific method in this area as well. One of the main qualities of science is ability of truth to be replicable by experiment. That means if I'm measuring distances between European groups same values should effect if you were to measure as well. This is obviously not the case: each of these oracles (like horoscopes) give conflicting results, not to mention some that conflict with history (a notorious example being Basque's "Steppe" paternal ancestry). History teaches us:

- how did people look like in the past (via archaeology or contemporary evidence) in terms of measurements and, disputably, pigmentation
- what were the main population movements (using same evidence)

Genetic evidence, if valuable, would help us clear the haze where standard methods cannot apply. So far it seems it's only effective in tracing racial groups but even there results aren't independently replicable: if you're mixed race and give your sample to another company somewhat different results will emerge.

[Universe]

I love science and I try to apply a scientific method in this area as well. One of the main qualities of science is ability of truth to be replicable by experiment. That means if I'm measuring distances between European groups same values should effect if you were to measure as well. This is obviously not the case: each of these oracles (like horoscopes) give conflicting results, not to mention some that conflict with history (a notorious example being Basque's "Steppe" paternal ancestry). History teaches us:

- how did people look like in the past (via archaeology or contemporary evidence) in terms of measurements and, disputably, pigmentation
- what were the main population movements (using same evidence)

1) Basques being R1b has nothing to with oracles because these calculators don't deal with haplogroups. Yes, they're R1b and R1a, I don't think that's something disputable. Also, that's just a haplogroup. Autosomally Basques do show more indigeneous european admixture (more whg) than do Spaniards, even if the Basques tested are probably mixed with Spaniards.
2) There are different oracles, some more accurate than others. There are calculators that aren't for Europeans at all, while others - like Eurogenes k13 and k15 - are designed specifically for European populations. Ideally we shouldn't take a single calculator and not consider anything else, a better approach is to look at the general picture based on the different calculators. What most people do on this forum is act like k13 is the only calculator out there and neglect others, I don't agree with that policy.
3) I think the reason you're skeptical of dna tests is because you did it yourself and it shows you're mostly Romanian by ancestry. But that doesn't mean they're inaccurate. Even on this thread there were multiple "Transylvanian saxon" results posted, most were very obviously mixed, some individuals were like 70% Romanian+30% German, or even 80+20 IIRC. I remember you have also Czech and Greek ancestry besides Romanian and German, so your paper trail German ancestry is less than 50%. The German ancestry you have was most likely Romanian admixed too, so your own result ended up being western shifted Romanian. Maybe on k15 you could show a little more German influence, because my own result looks more NW euro on k15 and as I said previously, I don't like how people here only care about k13 and pretend other calcs don't exist.

Genetic evidence, if valuable, would help us clear the haze where standard methods cannot apply. So far it seems it's only effective in tracing racial groups but even there results aren't independently replicable: if you're mixed race and give your sample to another company somewhat different results will emerge.

The commercial tests are actually very accurate at telling major races from each other (caucasoid, mongoloid, negroid) and also consistent when it comes to identifying what % European, Amerind and African a mixed person is from the new world. Also, when you download your raw data from different companies and you transfer it to gedmatch, they will look 99% the same on Eurogenes k13 or other calculators even if previously they looked different because different companies break down the ancestry differently.

the reference populations are trash

I'm not sure about that.

[Aspirin]

I think the reason you're skeptical of dna tests is because you did it yourslef and it shows you're mostly Romanian by ancestry..

This is the main reason why he is so butthurt, and why he so desperately want to prove something else. Same story with the freak ixulescu who wanted to prove what Moldavians are the same as Wallachians genetically, Transylvanian Romanians are identical to Hungarians, most rural population in Romania are Baltids, and all Moldavian samples colected by Ion Basescul are just cherrypicked samples to make Moldavians to be more northern.

[Ion Basescul]

This is the main reason why he is so butthurt, and why he so desperately want to prove something else. Same story with the freak ixulescu who wanted to prove what Moldavians are the same as Wallachians genetically, Transylvanian Romanians are identical to Hungarians, most rural population in Romania are Baltids, and all Moldavian samples colected by Ion Basescul are just cherrypicked samples to make Moldavians to be more northern.

I'm like the last person on this forum to care about someone being more Northern or Southern. What I do care about is accuracy and objectivity.

[Aspirin]

I'm like the last person on this forum to care about someone being more Northern or Southern. What I do care about is accuracy and objectivity.

I know, but that freak constantly insulting you because the results show totally a different story.