Who perpetuated the Roman Empire ?

[Sweet Perv]

# Franks Empire - Kingdom of France - Napoleon Empire
# Holy Roman Empire
# England - United Kingdom - USA
# others ?

I would be inclined to say : simply, the Roman Empire perpetuated the Roman Empire, talking about the eastern Roman Empire, later called Bizantine Empire, but you know it was a greek state, brillant but declining from a political and military point of view : they were naive with the Turks and never could do with the Slavics what the Pope did with Franks...

An extract from "History of France" by Jacques Bainville. NB : of course the Franks were originally a germanic tribe and also you have to locate the context : big troubles between France and Prussia / Germany...

"As soon as he was in sole command, in 771, Charlemagne sat to work on his project. His purpose ? To perpetuate Rome. In Italy, he defeats the king of the Lombards and he will take the crown of iron from him. He moves to Spain : it will be his only failure. But the Ronceveaux disaster, Roland's horn, serve his glory and his legend : his epic becomes national. Most of all, his master idea was to get it over with Germania, to tame and civilise those barbarians, impose the roman peace on them. On the fifty-three campaigns of his reign, eighteen of them had one target : submitting the Saxons. Charlemagne went further than the legions, consuls and emperors of Rome had never gone. He reached the Elbe. "We have, said he proudly, reduced the country as a province according to the antic roman custom." So he became for Germany what Julius Caesar had been for Gaul. But the matter is ingrate and rebellious. Witiking may have been the hero of the Germanic independence, like Vercingetorix had been the hero of the Gallic independence. The result was pretty different. Nobody saw, among the ancient Germans, the enthusiasm to adopt the victor's habits that had made the Roman Gaul. Their idols were smashed, but they kept their language and, with their language, their spirit. Germania has been civilised and christianised against its will and the success of Charlemagne was more seeming than deep. For "Francia", the people on the other side of the Rhine, defiant to latinity, stay dangerous neighbours, always inclined to invasions. Germany claims that Charlemagne was the first of its big national sovereigns. It's a huge misinterpretation. The fake Germanic Caesars have never followed the master idea, the Roman idea of Charlemagne : one united Christianity. The people of that time gave themselves over to the illusion that Germania had joined the Christian community, was won over to civilisation and not dangerous anymore for its western neighbours. But Charlemagne was the continuation of Marcus-Aurelius and Trajan. He had protected Europe from other barbarians, the Slavics and the Mongols. His power was extended up to the Danube. The Western Empire was restored like he had wanted. He only missed the imperial crown. He received it from the hands of the Pope, in 800, and the people, with the new Augustus, believed that times were tied up. Ephemeral restoration. But the title of Emperor will keep such a prestige that, one thousand years later, it's again this title that Napoleon will take."

[Sweet Perv]

My vision is a combination. I think the Western Empire was perpetuated lby different states and countries : Charlemagne - Holy Roman Empire - First French Empire. Even more strange : I think the Eastern Empire was perpetuated by the Kingdom of France from the 16th century until the Revolution and then by the kingdom of Serbia.

[gixajo]

Church , as institution did it.

[Sweet Perv]

Yeah, it makes sense, somehow the real boss was the pope most of the times. From this religious point of view, we can also say that, as other orthodox countries were occupied by the Ottomans, the Patriarchate actually moves from Constantinople to Moscow. It's more difficult to say that the Russian Empire (and why not USSR ?) continued the Eastern Empire, even if there's a part of truth, because not mediterranean enough, not stable enough, not loved enough. The russian messianism was in fact quite vain. Then, in a secular way, the USSR domination tried it again but failed.

[Sweet Perv]

France, "eldest daughter of the Church" and... of the Empire ?

"I am Roman because Rome, since the consul Marius and the divine Julius until Theodosius, have knocked up the first configuration of my country. I am Roman, because Rome, the Rome of priests and popes, has given the eternal solidarity of the feeling, the traditions, the language, the cult, to the political work of the roman generals, civil servants and judges. I am Roman, because, if my forefathers had not been Roman like I am, the first barbarian invasion, between the Vth and the Xth century, would have made me some kind of German or Norwegian. I am Roman, because, without my tutelary romanity, the second barbarian invasion, on the XVIth century, the protestant invasion, would have pulled from me some kind of Swiss. I am Roman as soon as I abound in my historical, intellectual and moral being. I am Roman because if I were not, I would have pretty much nothing of a French. And I don't feel any trouble about being Roman that way, because the interests of roman catholicism and the interests of France are mixed almost all the time, they don't contradict themselves anywhere. But other interests, more general, if not more urgent, lead me to the law of feeling Roman. I am Roman insofar as I feel human : animal that builds cities and States, non vague gnawer of roots; social animal, and non solitary carnivore; animal that, traveller or sedentary, excels in capitalising the acquisitions from the past and even in deducing from those a rational law; non destroyer wandering in hordes and fed with the vestiges of the ruins he has made. I am Roman by all the positive of my being, by all that was added in it by the pleasure, the work, the mind, the memory, the reason, the science, the arts, the policy and the poetry of the men living and assembled before me. By this treasure whose the deposit was received from Athens and delivered to our Paris, Rome means without contest the civilization of humanity. I am Roman, I am human : two identical clauses."

Charles Maurras

[gixajo]

Yeah, it makes sense, somehow the real boss was the pope most of the times. From this religious point of view, we can also say that, as other orthodox countries were occupied by the Ottomans, the Patriarchate actually moves from Constantinople to Moscow. It's more difficult to say that the Russian Empire (and why not USSR ?) continued the Eastern Empire, even if there's a part of truth, because not mediterranean enough, not stable enough, not loved enough. The russian messianism was in fact quite vain. Then, in a secular way, the USSR domination tried it again but failed.

I meant Church, after the fall of "ancient "Roman Empire, Eastern Roman empire lasted until 1453.

Church mantain certain territorial coherence trhough the dioceses in Western Europe, that basically copied the Roman territorial division and provinces. Even in territories under "barbarian" rule.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Eastern Roman empire=>France, Spain=>(England) Britain=> USA.

USA is the "last Rome" as it seems, unless another Western country (like EU or Russia) perpetuate it as a new western superpower.

China will soon be the new biggest economy in the world, but it doesn't have a "Roman" background, as it's not European or Christian

[Sweet Perv]

I meant Church, after the fall of "ancient "Roman Empire, Eastern Roman empire lasted until 1453.

Church mantain certain territorial coherence trhough the dioceses in Western Europe, that basically copied the Roman territorial division and provinces. Even in territories under "barbarian" rule.

I just digressed using your view on the east side ah ah ! Interesting point about territoral divisions, thanks gixa

[Sweet Perv]

I meant Church, after the fall of "ancient "Roman Empire, Eastern Roman empire lasted until 1453.

Church mantain certain territorial coherence trhough the dioceses in Western Europe, that basically copied the Roman territorial division and provinces. Even in territories under "barbarian" rule.

I just digressed using your view on the east side ah ah ! Interesting point about territoral divisions, thanks gixa

[Cristiano viejo]

Spain did. Spreading catholicism All over the world and culturizing other peoples.
As eastern as That.