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Thread: French historian on Kosovo

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    Default French historian on Kosovo

    ''Are the Albanian invaders of Kosovo ? '' Written by a French historian , I took some parts and had to use google translate




    ''Admittedly, we witnessed a phenomenon of slavization, of which toponymy is the best witness, but we know that toponymy is an argument of little value in determining the ethnicity of a population: consider the very large number of Slavic place names that can be found in Albania itself, where no one would think to maintain that the population was never mainly Slavic [/ b]. Moreover, such an argument would hardly serve the proponents of the "Serbian thesis" since the majority of the Slavic toponyms of Kosovo as of Albania seem to be rather Bulgarian than Serbian, which is very natural since the Bulgarians occupied the region from the 9th century and especially at the end of the 10th, at the height of the last Bulgarian empire whose capital was Ohrid. At that time, the Serbs were still far from Kosovo: indeed, in the 9th-10th centuries, their first coherent formations are Rascie, in the valley of Ibar, in the west of Morava, and Zéta, which corresponds roughly to current Montenegro; It was not until Prince Stjepan gained royal title in 1217 that the Serbian state expanded and included the region of Peja (Peć) [at the time Ipek], most of Kosovo remaining yet still outside its limits. Let us therefore not insist: any argumentation of the "historical" type can only turn against the "Serbian" thesis since history teaches us that the Serbs are, with respect to Kosovo, very late invaders. ''




    ''[B]Has Serbian domination made the old Ilyro-Albanian population disappear? [B]In fact, it is the Serbian texts themselves which prove us the opposite: in 1348, a donation made by the great tsar Stepan IX Dušan to the monastery of Saints Michael and Gabriel of Prizren proves to us that it existed, probably in the surroundings of this city, at least 9 villages qualified as Albanian (arbanaš) [/ b] [10]. The following year, the famous code promulgated by this same sovereign proves to us that there existed, in number of villages of his domain, alongside the Slavic populations, Wallachian and Albanian elements [/ b] whose dynamism had to to be considerable, since the tsar endeavored to limit their installation on the territories [11]. Note that if the Wallachians and the Albanians are now considered to be nomads, it is certainly not because they are "original pastors", but simply because they have been reduced to this situation by the economic and political pressure of the dominant people; already in 1328, it was the same [b] in the regions of Diabolis, Kolônée and Ohrid where Jean Cantacuzène narrates the meeting of the Byzantine emperor Andronic III with the "nomadic Albanians" of central Macedonia [/ b] [12 ]. ''


    ''[B]Certainly, the Serbian domination seemed heavy to the Albanians subjected; even given the author's clear propaganda intentions, there is undoubtedly truth in what is written, around 1332, a Crusade propagandist, William of Adam: "because the so-called peoples, both Latins and Albanians, are oppressed by the unbearable yoke and the very hard servitude of the lord of the Slavs who is hateful and abominable to them, because their people are charged with taxes, their clergy slaughtered and despised, their bishops and their abbots very often chained, their nobles dispossessed ... All, together and individually, would believe to make their hands sacred if they immersed them in the blood of the aforesaid Slavs [/ b] "[13].''



    Gonna add some more parts later
    Last edited by Akilles; 04-22-2020 at 01:41 PM.

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    ''
    It is in this context that the Turkish conquest begins, in the second half of the 14th century, and it is true that it is thanks to this episode that the Albanians can reaffirm themselves in Kosovo, but certainly not in the way in which the thing is usually presented: far from arriving "in the vans of the enemy", the Albanian population, from Lake Shkodra to Kosovo, united with the other Christian populations. During the decisive shock of 1389, the Greek authors mention, among the Serbs and Bulgarians, the Albanians of the North, those of Himara, Epirus and the coastal region. As for the Turkish chronicle by Idrisi Bitlisi, it specifically mentions the participation of Albanians from the Shkodra region whose prince, Georges Balsha, is said to have led 50,000 men to battle [17];'


    ''So we have no reason to think that the Ottomans, in this phase of their conquest, relied especially on the Albanians whom they would have opposed to the Slavs. It is probably worth remembering that the Albanians were then Christians like the Serbs and had no special propensity to submit to the Ottomans. If it is irrelevant here to speak of the work of Skanderbeg, some of whose actions are moreover situated on the borders of Kosovo, it will be recalled that the Byzantine historian Doukas, in the middle of the 15th century, gives for main cause of the Turkish triumph the weakening of the Albanians, from Dalmatia to Thrace . As for the Turkish chronicles, they do not fail to mention the Albanian uprisings in Kosovo, especially that of 1467 which sees the "rebels" ''


    ''The defeat of 1389, by completely disorganizing the Serbian state, left the field open to the most dynamic local lords, among whom [b] the most remarkable Albanian princes of North and Northeast is Jon Kastrioti, the father of Skanderbeg who, from the high regions of Mati, succeeded, at the end of the fourteenth and at the beginning of the fifteenth century, in carving out a vast principality which went from the estuary of Ishmi to Prizren, in the heart of Kosovo [/ b]. In 1420, therefore, he granted the Ragusans a commercial privilege from the coast "on his land to Prizren" [19].''



    ''[B]As for the Turkish chronicles, they do not fail to mention the Albanian uprisings in Kosovo, especially that of 1467 which sees the "rebels"

    [B]It is therefore obvious that a large Albanian population was in Kosovo even before the Turkish conquest [/ b], without it being necessary to explain this fact, to suppose the triggering of massive migrations of which the sources speak not ; [b] the fact that there was never any question of clashes between Slavs and Albanians during the time of Tsar Dušan and especially during the creation of the principality of Kastriot tends to prove that the "Albanian power" is gradually spreading and has been generally well accepted by local people, presumably because they have always included important Albanian elements [/ b]. As for determining the relative importance of the Albanians compared to the Slavs in Kosovo in the 15th century, it must be said that this is almost impossible,

    ''


    ''Let us first emphasize the extreme honesty with which S. Pulaha treats the rich toponymic and anthroponymic data provided by this source:[B] it is good to repeat with him that an Albanian can very well bear a Slavic name and vice versa, and that a Slavic or Albanian toponymy does not prejudge the nature of the populations considered [25]. However, it is certain that the joint use of a double toponymy and a double anthroponymy testifies to an ethnic mixture [/ b] of which one can, according to the regions, measure the components with regard to the sandjak of Shkodra (which, let us remember, includes the entire Kosovar area of ​​Peja), S. Pulaha thus distinguishes three sets where the Albanian element is more or less represented: Shkodra region where the Albanians constitute the huge majority, Piper region, Shestan, Altun-ili,

    The essential conclusion is that such an intimate mixture between the two elements of the population would be completely unimaginable if one or the other of these elements had recently settled in the region; [B]the Ottoman cadastre of Shkodra therefore shows, especially for the area of ​​Peja, that [b] the Albanians are indeed a very old component of the local population [/ b]; and since, moreover, we are not aware of any massive movement from Albania to Kosovo before the 16th century, it must be thought that a good part of the Kosovar Albanian element has its roots in the old Ilyro-Albanian population which had dominated since Antiquity [/ b] [28]. ''

    '[B]'Let us conclude: in Kosovo, it was obviously the Slavs or the Slavic peoples, Bulgarians then Serbs, who occupied, from the 7th century, a region whose population was massively illyro-Albanian since Antiquity [/ b] . Admittedly, the Slavic implantation and the inevitable slavization of a part of the original population allowed the Serbs, at the beginning of the 13th century, to make Kosovo their main political and economic center, but no one will ever know what were, at At that time, the respective proportions of the two elements, whose coexistence nevertheless seems to have been without great problem. Then, the Ottoman conquest and the progressive weakening of Serbia allowed the Albanian population, both by internal reaction and thanks to the peaceful migratory flow of the Christian Albanians from the North, to weigh more and more in Kosovo. Many studies are still necessary to be able to affirm it, but it is probable that, even before the Slavic migrations of 1690 and 1738 [pure invention of the Serbian pseudo-nationalist historiography, as Malcolm showed it], [b ] the Albanians constituted in Kosovo a significant minority, if not the majority of the population [/ b]. '' ''

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    '' Let us add that the Byzantine authors are very sensitive to the unity of the population from Albania to Macedonia: the historian Laonikos Chalkokondylis, who wrote in the 15th century, after having pointed out that the Albanians of his time are strong, different from the Serbs and the Bosnians, concludes that there is no other people who, more than the Albanians, resembles the Macedonians ''

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akilles View Post
    '' Let us add that the Byzantine authors are very sensitive to the unity of the population from Albania to Macedonia: the historian Laonikos Chalkokondylis, who wrote in the 15th century, after having pointed out that the Albanians of his time are strong, different from the Serbs and the Bosnians, concludes that there is no other people who, more than the Albanians, resembles the Macedonians ''
    Of which Macedonians you talking , about Greko-Fake Macedonians or real Macedonians?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyP View Post
    Of which Macedonians you talking , about Greko-Fake Macedonians or real Macedonians?
    Probably the Northern Greek ones and not the Cumanovo gypsies

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    I think he meant Albanians resemble Ancient Macedonians or Greek Macedonians I'm not sure if he meant todays Northern Macedonians.


    The google translation isn't exactly 100% correct and I didn't post all parts but these are some sources used which I'm gonna check out, would be an advantage to actually speak some of these languages like Slavic, French etc to understand these texts.



    [1] Michel Aubin, "From Serbian myth to Albanian nationalism", Le Monde, 5-6 April 198 1, p. 2.

    [2] Georges Ostrogorskij, Serska Oblast posle Dušanove smrti ("The district of Seres after the death of King Dušan"),
    Belgrade, 1965.

    [3] On the Serbs, in particular, cf. H. Grégoire, "The Origin and the Name of the Croats and the Serbs", Byzantine,
    17, 1945 and S. Novaković, "Srpske Oblasti X.-XI. veka" ("Serbian territories in the 11th century), Glasnik
    Srpskog društva, 1880, p. 48.

    [4] The bibliography on the Illyrians is considerable. It suffices to mention the archaeological collection "Illyria"
    (6 published volumes, Tirana 1971-1976); The Illyrians and the Genesis of the Albanians, Tirana 1971 and The Acts of
    the Conference of Illyrian Studies, in two volumes, Tirana 1974.

    [5] S. Anamali and M. Korkuti, The lllyrians and the Genesis of the Albanians in the Light of Albanian Archaeological
    Studies, in the collection bearing the same title, pp. 1 1-39; on linguistic data, cf. Eqrem Çabej,
    The Illyrians and the Albanians, in the same volume, pp.41-52.

    [6] B. Ćović, "Basic Material Characteristics of the Illyrians in their Central Area", Sarajevo Symposium, 1964,
    p. 101. cf. S.Anamaii et M. Korkuti, The Illyrians and the Genesis of the Albanians, p. 35.

    [7] S. Anamaii, "From the Albanian Civilization of the Early Middle Ages", The Illyrians… pp. 184-187.

    [8] lbidem, p. 185, 192.

    [9] AM Selichev, Slaviansko naselenie v Albanii, Sofia 1931, to be studied with caution, given the ardor of his
    Bulgarian prejudices.

    [10] S. Novaković, Zakonski spomenici srpskih država srednjega veka ("Legal Collections of Serbian States in the
    Middle Ages"), Belgrade 1912, pp. 628-701.

    [11] Cf. en particulier les ch. 77 et 82 du Code de Dušan (N. Radojčić, Code of Emperor Stefan Dušan, Belgrade
    1960, pp. 57-58).

    [12] J. Kantakuzen, History, Ed. de Bonn, 1, p. 55, t. 1, p. 279.

    [13] Cf. Bokardus, Directory for passengers to be done, "Historians of the Crusades", Armenian historians, 11, pp.
    484-485.

    [14] Laonikos Chalkokondylis, History, Ed. E. Darko, Budapest 1922-1926, 1, pp. 277-278.

    [15] Ibidem, 11, pp. 277-278.

    [16] Hierax, Chronicle on the Empire of the Turks, Sathas; Biblioteca graeca, 1, p. 247.

    [17] ldrisi Bitlisi, "Chronique sur l'empire des Turcs, fols. 188-190 (a)" ; in Selami Pulaha, The Albanian-Turkish
    War of the 15th Century (Ottoman sources), Tirana 1968, pp. 134-138, 142.

    [18] S. Pulaha, op. cit., pp. 251-252, 297.

    [19] Published by Radonic, Gjuragj Kastriot Skanderbeg i Arbanija u XV. veku, Belgrade 1942, p. 2.

    [20] Archives d'Etat de Dubrovnik, "Education and the Commission Levantis", 10, p. 84 v. (17 mars 1428).

    [21] lbidem, XIV, f. 248 (January 5, 1448).

    [22] Dukas, Turkish-Byzantine History, XXIII, 8th Ed. Grecu, Bucharest, 1959, pp. 179.

    [23] Kemalpasazade, Chronique, f. 254 in Pulaha, op. cit., p. 191.

    [24] Selami Pulaha, The Cadastral Register of the Shkodra Sandjak of 1458, vol. 2, Tirana, 1974.

    [25] S. Pulaha, op. cit., pp. 31-32.

    [26] lbidem, pp. 33-34.

    [27] lbid., P. 34, has 15 villages in this case.

    [28] S. Pulaha, op. cit., pp. 34-35. It should be noted that this is also the conclusion of the great Yugoslav historian [but
    no, he was a Croat - FG], Milan Šufflay, killed in 1925 by the Ustashas [the Ustasis had no
    reason to blame him; they were obviously pseudo-nationalists from the Great Serbs] (M. Šufflay, Povijest sjevernih
    arbanaša, reprinted at Prishtina 1968, pp. 61-62).

    [29] A. Hanžić, Nekoliko vijesti o arbanašima na Kosovu i Metohiji sredinom XV. vijeka ("Quelques informations
    sur les Albanais de la Kosova et du Plateau de Dukagjin au milieu du XVème siècle", "Symposium on Skanderbeg", Prishtina
    1969, pp. 201-209. S. Pulaha, "Albanian Element according to the Onomastics of the Regions of the Shkodra Sandjak
    in the Years 1485-1582 ", Studime historike, 1972, 1, pp. 63 et suiv.

    [30] See in particular the documents extracted from the Dubrovnik state archives and in particular the Book of
    Accounts of Mihal Lukarević (M.Dinić, Iz Dubrovačkog arhiva 1; Belgrade 1957. Examples p. 65 ("Dom Marin de Antivaro",
    " Andria Nicholich Arbanexo de Matia ").

    [31] M. Dinic, op. cit., p. 68.

    [32] lbidem, c. also the Dubrovnik State Archives, Pacta Matrimonalia II, f. 103 v. (December 11, 1459).

    [33] Cf. I. Zamputi, Report on the Situation of Northern and Central Albania in the 17th Century, volume 1 (1610-1634),
    Tirana 1968, et le rapport du visiteur apostolique Pjetër Mazreku en 1623-1624.

    [34] L. von Thalloczy, "The Albanian Diaspora", Illyrian-Albanian Research (Vienna 1916), vol. 1, p. 314,
    ss. In this article, from the archives of the place for the Karlovac, in the archives of the Joint Ministry of Finance,
    Vienna, note VI, p. 25, 1739.

    [35] This is what we can conclude from the memorandum of Vaso Ćubrilović, "The Expulsion of the Albanians" [Iseljavanje
    Arnauta], written in 1937, which envisaged a massive transfer to Kosovo of the population of Kosovo. These problems
    (and in particular the report written on the question in 1939 by Ivo Andrić, and the extent of Albanian emigration
    to Turkey between the two wars) are dealt with by M. Roux, "Language and the State Power in Yugoslavia. The
    Case of the Albanians ", Pluriel 22, Paris, 1980.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freeroostah View Post
    Probably the Northern Greek ones and not the Cumanovo gypsies
    Sure Norther "Greeks" aka slavophone Macedonians mixed with Pontics.Go back to Pelloponnese you have nothing in common with Epir-Trakia-Tesalia-Makedonia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akilles View Post
    I think he meant Albanians resemble Ancient Macedonians or Greek Macedonians I'm not sure if he meant todays Northern Macedonians.


    The google translation isn't exactly 100% correct and I didn't post all parts but these are some sources used which I'm gonna check out, would be an advantage to actually speak some of these languages like Slavic, French etc to understand these texts.



    [1] Michel Aubin, "From Serbian myth to Albanian nationalism", Le Monde, 5-6 April 198 1, p. 2.

    [2] Georges Ostrogorskij, Serska Oblast posle Dušanove smrti ("The district of Seres after the death of King Dušan"),
    Belgrade, 1965.

    [3] On the Serbs, in particular, cf. H. Grégoire, "The Origin and the Name of the Croats and the Serbs", Byzantine,
    17, 1945 and S. Novaković, "Srpske Oblasti X.-XI. veka" ("Serbian territories in the 11th century), Glasnik
    Srpskog društva, 1880, p. 48.

    [4] The bibliography on the Illyrians is considerable. It suffices to mention the archaeological collection "Illyria"
    (6 published volumes, Tirana 1971-1976); The Illyrians and the Genesis of the Albanians, Tirana 1971 and The Acts of
    the Conference of Illyrian Studies, in two volumes, Tirana 1974.

    [5] S. Anamali and M. Korkuti, The lllyrians and the Genesis of the Albanians in the Light of Albanian Archaeological
    Studies, in the collection bearing the same title, pp. 1 1-39; on linguistic data, cf. Eqrem Çabej,
    The Illyrians and the Albanians, in the same volume, pp.41-52.

    [6] B. Ćović, "Basic Material Characteristics of the Illyrians in their Central Area", Sarajevo Symposium, 1964,
    p. 101. cf. S.Anamaii et M. Korkuti, The Illyrians and the Genesis of the Albanians, p. 35.

    [7] S. Anamaii, "From the Albanian Civilization of the Early Middle Ages", The Illyrians… pp. 184-187.

    [8] lbidem, p. 185, 192.

    [9] AM Selichev, Slaviansko naselenie v Albanii, Sofia 1931, to be studied with caution, given the ardor of his
    Bulgarian prejudices.

    [10] S. Novaković, Zakonski spomenici srpskih država srednjega veka ("Legal Collections of Serbian States in the
    Middle Ages"), Belgrade 1912, pp. 628-701.

    [11] Cf. en particulier les ch. 77 et 82 du Code de Dušan (N. Radojčić, Code of Emperor Stefan Dušan, Belgrade
    1960, pp. 57-58).

    [12] J. Kantakuzen, History, Ed. de Bonn, 1, p. 55, t. 1, p. 279.

    [13] Cf. Bokardus, Directory for passengers to be done, "Historians of the Crusades", Armenian historians, 11, pp.
    484-485.

    [14] Laonikos Chalkokondylis, History, Ed. E. Darko, Budapest 1922-1926, 1, pp. 277-278.

    [15] Ibidem, 11, pp. 277-278.

    [16] Hierax, Chronicle on the Empire of the Turks, Sathas; Biblioteca graeca, 1, p. 247.

    [17] ldrisi Bitlisi, "Chronique sur l'empire des Turcs, fols. 188-190 (a)" ; in Selami Pulaha, The Albanian-Turkish
    War of the 15th Century (Ottoman sources), Tirana 1968, pp. 134-138, 142.

    [18] S. Pulaha, op. cit., pp. 251-252, 297.

    [19] Published by Radonic, Gjuragj Kastriot Skanderbeg i Arbanija u XV. veku, Belgrade 1942, p. 2.

    [20] Archives d'Etat de Dubrovnik, "Education and the Commission Levantis", 10, p. 84 v. (17 mars 1428).

    [21] lbidem, XIV, f. 248 (January 5, 1448).

    [22] Dukas, Turkish-Byzantine History, XXIII, 8th Ed. Grecu, Bucharest, 1959, pp. 179.

    [23] Kemalpasazade, Chronique, f. 254 in Pulaha, op. cit., p. 191.

    [24] Selami Pulaha, The Cadastral Register of the Shkodra Sandjak of 1458, vol. 2, Tirana, 1974.

    [25] S. Pulaha, op. cit., pp. 31-32.

    [26] lbidem, pp. 33-34.

    [27] lbid., P. 34, has 15 villages in this case.

    [28] S. Pulaha, op. cit., pp. 34-35. It should be noted that this is also the conclusion of the great Yugoslav historian [but
    no, he was a Croat - FG], Milan Šufflay, killed in 1925 by the Ustashas [the Ustasis had no
    reason to blame him; they were obviously pseudo-nationalists from the Great Serbs] (M. Šufflay, Povijest sjevernih
    arbanaša, reprinted at Prishtina 1968, pp. 61-62).

    [29] A. Hanžić, Nekoliko vijesti o arbanašima na Kosovu i Metohiji sredinom XV. vijeka ("Quelques informations
    sur les Albanais de la Kosova et du Plateau de Dukagjin au milieu du XVème siècle", "Symposium on Skanderbeg", Prishtina
    1969, pp. 201-209. S. Pulaha, "Albanian Element according to the Onomastics of the Regions of the Shkodra Sandjak
    in the Years 1485-1582 ", Studime historike, 1972, 1, pp. 63 et suiv.

    [30] See in particular the documents extracted from the Dubrovnik state archives and in particular the Book of
    Accounts of Mihal Lukarević (M.Dinić, Iz Dubrovačkog arhiva 1; Belgrade 1957. Examples p. 65 ("Dom Marin de Antivaro",
    " Andria Nicholich Arbanexo de Matia ").

    [31] M. Dinic, op. cit., p. 68.

    [32] lbidem, c. also the Dubrovnik State Archives, Pacta Matrimonalia II, f. 103 v. (December 11, 1459).

    [33] Cf. I. Zamputi, Report on the Situation of Northern and Central Albania in the 17th Century, volume 1 (1610-1634),
    Tirana 1968, et le rapport du visiteur apostolique Pjetër Mazreku en 1623-1624.

    [34] L. von Thalloczy, "The Albanian Diaspora", Illyrian-Albanian Research (Vienna 1916), vol. 1, p. 314,
    ss. In this article, from the archives of the place for the Karlovac, in the archives of the Joint Ministry of Finance,
    Vienna, note VI, p. 25, 1739.

    [35] This is what we can conclude from the memorandum of Vaso Ćubrilović, "The Expulsion of the Albanians" [Iseljavanje
    Arnauta], written in 1937, which envisaged a massive transfer to Kosovo of the population of Kosovo. These problems
    (and in particular the report written on the question in 1939 by Ivo Andrić, and the extent of Albanian emigration
    to Turkey between the two wars) are dealt with by M. Roux, "Language and the State Power in Yugoslavia. The
    Case of the Albanians ", Pluriel 22, Paris, 1980.
    Look at this first , Albanians are Roman Legion remnants mixed with some balkan tribes which is not illyrian only, their idea about ancient Illyrians came from Austro-Hungary, even Gheg and Tosk had different languages and todays albanian language is mix of Yiddish,latin and slavic.And i think you dont understood right that quote, in 15century there is not Greeks and they r not calling themselfs macedonians till 1913-1920 year.You need to research some things, not to copy/paste some quote you found on internet without background-check.
    Btw Kosovo e Srbija.
    Target: johnnyp_scaled
    Distance: 1.7117% / 0.01711654 | R3P
    49.6 Ancient-Macedonian
    27.2 Illyrian
    23.2 Balto-Slavic_IA

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyP View Post
    Of which Macedonians you talking , about Greko-Fake Macedonians or real Macedonians?
    Macedonicis
    The Talmud tells us that the only language the Torah could be translated into elegantly is Greek.

    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    Demons don't scare me.
    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    They should be scared of me.

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