Hittite GEDmatch results (1750 BC)

[Hudayar]

I thought Hittites were half greek half armenoid.I was wrong.It looks like they were closer to natufians than armenians or eastern turks

Hittites predate Greeks and there really doesn't seem to be any Greek influence on any population present in Anatolia.

[dududud]

Based on what? There is a possibility earliest IE were of Caucasus ancestry, not steppe.
Yamnaya was half CHG half EHG, and we still don't know which half brought the language.

Some people are quite limited. Sample like this speaks in favour of Armenian Highland theory which David Reich also speaks about.

I maintain: without being limited, this sample is not Indo-European.

Very Levantine shifted.

Nothing too impressive for a Hittite, however.

[Mejgusu]

I maintain: without being limited, this sample is not Indo-European.

Very Levantine shifted.

Nothing too impressive for a Hittite, however.

At least genetically. The hitites were probably the most levantine shifted IE people.

[Bosniensis]

WHERE ARE ALL THOSE TROLLS ABOUT ROME AND INDO-EUROPEAN THEORY?

When I WAS SAYING Anatolians are not Indo-Europeans people were saying I am crazy.

Apulinas = Hittite diety = Apollo Greek diety

Az Div = Hittite diety = Az Deus (Zeus) Greek diety

etc...

"muh indo europan" R1b forever.. muh...


Zeus came from Russia! hahahah

[Leto]

Zeus came from Russia! hahahah

Yes, he was white and not fucking swarthy like you!
You think you don't look "Slavic" (nobody else actually cares) and hence you are perplexed.

[Demhat]

Iran_Neo is not interchangeable with CHG in this context.

As I mentioned the difference is small to minimal. Similar to WHG and SHG. But as I wrote that shouldn't be your main focus of the debate. Since the EHG-CHG model is very much rejected not only because of the age of the CHG samples.

You mention Iranian_CHL and there is no evidence they had themselves any relevant impact in the Steppe:

Certanly there is evidence of Northwest Iran-Southeast Caucasus cultures having huge impact on the Steppes. Starting from the very earliest Kurgans. But this game can be played two ways. You don't have "any evidence" that "CHG" itself played a role in Yamnaya it could be something else similar to it. And you also have no proof that Steppe derived EHG played a role in Hittites yet you keep speculating

I focused on Iran_CHL because I was not disputing CHG ancestry in the Steppe, in any case such ancestry existed in some amount since the 5th millenium BCE.

Once again the sheer age of CHG makes it very very unlikely source. Also newest formal stats show Yamnaya did indeed have some little Anatolian_Neo kind of ancestry that can be well explained by Iran_Chl like admixture.

We can't be really sure about can we?

It is as likely/unlikely as any other Theory as long as disproven the opposite.

I mean we are totally sidelining the question because you are now creating 2 quite distinct populations that both at the same time spoke the same language, how is that any less likely than a Hittite speaking group undergoing bottle neck as well? They seem the same to me.

I have not sidelined a single question nord have I put words in anyonce mouth they never used

I am most definitely not creating two "quite distinct" populations which belong to the same culture, they are literally there and they are not as distinct as you want to make it out to be. Steppe Maykop is simply South Maykop with more EHG and a little East Eurasian admixture. And this EHG admixture seems to be from a different older source than Yamnaya. It looks like it came straight from Central Asia.

Steppe Maykop and South Maykop are literally the same culture and with very high likely-ness spoke exactly the same language. There are less things speaking against it, than for it.

It is possible, like everything in theory is, but I'm not sure why it is more preferable.

I am not talking like it is the only logical conclusion. I am literally not excluding the possibility as it is the case with the opposition in this debate. So I am fairly certain my approach is much fairer. Don't you think?

What do you mean exactly? That Leyla Tepe genetically/linguistically influenced the Steppe? The Armenian Copper age samples from Areni dated around this period seem to have quite some EHG ancestry I believe:

The Armenian samples are younger, from a different location and belong most likely to Kura-Araxes or Hurrians not Leyla Tepe. Though I would be suprised to not find any EHG like DNA there, if we already found EHG like ancestry in Iran_Hotu mesolithic sample.

What bothers me the most. Is the hypocrisy in one thing. Any type of EHG ancestry found in Western Asia is automatically considered a "sign" of Steppe Indo European influx. Totally ignoring the fact that allot of it might be (and possibly is) older. It's like me claiming any Bronze Age culture with very high amoung of Anatolian_Farmer DNA is Bronze Age Anatolian derived. For example when I discussed with certain bloggers in the past they also tended to argue that the "CHG" in the Steppes is of a much older local source ( I wasn't doubting the possibility) but in the same breath would dismiss any possibility of EHG like DNA in Western Asia prior to the Bronze Age.

Doesn't sound reasonable let alone like a fair unbiased approach to me.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...600&carousel=1


My point is that there is so many people in the Hittite empire than 4 samples are not necessarily going to cut the whole range of diversity, if the pattern persists universally in Anatolia then sure that's a different story.

One of the 4 samples does have some EHG:

https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...600&carousel=1

in My very first posts I clarified that the noise amount of EHG in found in some samples does not support a Steppe influx because it can be perfectly explained by surrounding admixture such as from Kura-Araxes like cultures. And here we go several comments later this is thrown into the room as an argument.

We are literally running in circles

And during this period (Assyrian colony period) there were Assyrian colonies as well, now I'm not going to claim those samples must be specifically X or Y, but it does show that you can't invoke populations from Armenia or Eastern Turkey from different periods when the Hittite samples were in central Anatolia:

Assyrians grew in power and bordered Hittites allot later than this samples are dating to. So Assyrian admixture is out of question imo. During that time the Hittites were bordering the Mitanni which should actually bring more CHG and some Steppe admixture than anything else.
If anything Assyrian admixture would increase Levant_Neo like DNA in Anatolia and decrease(not eradicate) the other components. But again this is literally grasping at Straws trying to explain why something is not there what should be there (from your perspective). let me tell you more. Assyrians ruled over Western Iran for far longer than they did over parts of the Hittites. I am wondering why we still find significant amount of derived Steppe ancestry in Median era samples and even mroe in their descendens. Assyrians were conquerers you could even call them the very first terrorists in world history. But they most certanly were not rapist maniacs. They would much rather massacre your people than breed childs with them.

Also yes, it's possible for non-Indo-European people to have more Steppe than Indo-European people, are you going to argue against Etruscans vs Greeks or the fact that non-IE parts of IA Spain are similar to IE parts of Spain? I see that Kura-Araxes doesn't have that much Steppe anyway so I'm not sure how that changes anything.

First of all Etruscan origin nore language has yet been identified to this day. The most recent DNA studies show. Etruscans were literally identical to the proto_Italics making it possible that they might have actually been a Italic related group. Also I don't understand how this example is of any importance for our debate. Yes some Indo Europeans have less Steppe than "non Indo Europeans" the point is not that Hittites have less Steppe than Turks. The point is that Hittites show no Bronze Age Steppe derived ancestry at all. Note before we misunderstand it again. There is a reason I called it Bronze Age Steppe derived, because when Hittites have anything Steppe like it is well explained by admixture from Calcolthic cultures to it's east.

Later Armenian bronze age samples do have more Steppe but they come chronologically at least 2 centuries later.

Armenian Calcolthic samples do have Steppe admixture and they do not come 2 centuries later than the Hittite sample.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...cient-data.png


To be fair we have reached the point where we simply turn in circles. I certanly don't have the desire to repeat these things over and over again. At least you agreed that we can't exclude any of the theories I made and which the scientists support.

Let's agree to disagree and debate some other time about which theories make more sense

[Hudayar]

WHERE ARE ALL THOSE TROLLS ABOUT ROME AND INDO-EUROPEAN THEORY?

When I WAS SAYING Anatolians are not Indo-Europeans people were saying I am crazy.

Apulinas = Hittite diety = Apollo Greek diety

Az Div = Hittite diety = Az Deus (Zeus) Greek diety

etc...

"muh indo europan" R1b forever.. muh...


Zeus came from Russia! hahahah

I think a comparison between Teshub and Zeus would be better. Since Az Div is not even a real deity.

[Demhat]

By old E. Asian I'm talking much older than Scythians. That's why it's important when discussing something to state E. Asian since Iron Age or E. Asian since Neolthic or E. Asian since Medieval. It's all about context.

Just to clarify further when I say Kurds are modeled as 60% Iran-Chl + 40% Sarmatian like I'm talking about E. Eurasian since Chalcolithic. in this case it would be a total of 8-15% E. Eurasian. Now how much of this 8 to 15% is AASI related and how much is E. Asian and Siberian combined is a different story. Although with Kurds there is a certain amount of AASI and Siberian that's included in this calculation.

By old E. Eurasian we can include some alleles which were shared in Paleolithic between Afontogora, Kurds, and E. Asians. Phenotype traits don't change as easily as a single junk SNP used in admixture calcuations

To be honest Zoro it doesn't appear fair to call all of that East Eurasian than to begin with. What you probably try to explain and are talking about is, very ancient shared ancestry between some ancestral mesolithic time population and East Eurasians. It is as much East Eurasian as it is West Eurasian. It is shared ancestry.

I seriously doubt Post_Neolithic East Eurasian admixture exceeds ~7%(average ~4%) in any non admixed Kurd.

[Bosniensis]

I think a comparison between Teshub and Zeus would be better. Since Az Div is not even a real deity.

Daeva Az or Oz was Persian - Syrian deity of avarice and greed.

He was later Identified as Az Zazel (Az the Noble) before he got damned, according to him Mount Azazel got the name.

He is a Demon who disobeyed God, whom muslim later know as Iblis or Satan.

Greeks named Him Az Deus or later Zeus.... Romans called him Zeus Pater or Zeuspater which name through centuries became Jove or Jupiter.

Herodotus said that Ahura-Mazda is Zeus and Muhammed said that Ahura-Mazda is Satans deception.

[Zoro]

To be honest Zoro it doesn't appear fair to call all of that East Eurasian than to begin with. What you probably try to explain and are talking about is, very ancient shared ancestry between some ancestral mesolithic time population and East Eurasians. It is as much East Eurasian as it is West Eurasian. It is shared ancestry.

I seriously doubt Post_Neolithic East Eurasian admixture exceeds ~7%(average ~4%) in any non admixed Kurd.

The problem is percentages are not a good way to figure out total admixture because percentages change depending on what other components are used. Here’s a great example that will really clarify what I’m talking about:

Let’s say there are 3 black guys and 7 white guys in my town. Percentage of black guys in my town is therefore 30%
Let’s say there are 3 black guys , 10 brown guys and 7 white guys in your town. Percentage of black guys in your town is 3/20= 15%

So going by percentages someone would think my town has more black guys but in reality we both have the same number of black guys.

Now replace guys with alleles. Black is E. Asian, brown is W. Asian, and white is European.
My town replace with S. Asian guy. Your town replace with Kurd guy.

You see that S. Asian guy will show 30% E. Asian
Kurd guy will show 15% E. Asian even though he has 3 E. Asian alleles same as S. Asian

I think it’s a waste of time doing percentages. I think we should count how many E. Asian alleles Kurds have vs others