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Thread: Assyrians and Chaldeans language shift

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Dr_Maul's Avatar
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    It is hard to say but I think the main reason is the Schism of the Eastern Church combined with back-to-back massacres of Assyrians in the last few centuries. After the Schism many of them went to the Chaldean (Aramaic) Church which was also supported by Ottomans, because the original one had been deemed heretical by the Patriarch (the whole event is quite Iffy). Therefore I think its possible that the killings of Assyrians in the past few hundred years had been targeted at the original Church (NOT the Chaldean/Aramic one) which was not recognized and protected by the Ottomans but I'm not sure
    Last edited by Dr_Maul; 05-01-2020 at 05:30 PM.
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    Veteran Member Dr_Maul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Maul View Post
    It is hard to say but I think the main reason is the Schism of the Eastern Church combined with back-to-back massacres of Assyrians in the last few centuries. After the Schism many of them went to the Chaldean (Aramaic) Church which was also supported by Ottomans, because the original one had been deemed heretical by the Patriarch (the whole event is quite Iffy). Therefore I think its possible that the killings of Assyrians in the past few hundred years had been targeted at the original Church (NOT the Chaldean/Aramaic one) which was not recognized and protected by the Ottomans but I'm not sure
    Edited
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Maul View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade
    I'd say Turanid/Alpine/Mediterranean mix.
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    Veteran Member Halgurd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Maul View Post
    It is hard to say but I think the main reason is the Schism of the Eastern Church combined with back-to-back massacres of Assyrians in the last few centuries. After the Schism many of them went to the Chaldean (Aramaic) Church which was also supported by Ottomans, because the original one had been deemed heretical by the Patriarch (the whole event is quite Iffy). Therefore I think its possible that the killings of Assyrians in the past few hundred years had been targeted at the original Church (NOT the Chaldean/Aramic one) which was not recognized and protected by the Ottomans but I'm not sure
    I think that it just resulted in different dialects of Aramaic.
    The Akkadian language died out about 1500 years before that.

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    Veteran Member Halgurd's Avatar
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    Another possibility is that speakers of Akkadian simply adopted Aramaic due to its importance in religion as well as politically. Aramaic was a very powerful and useful language in the past.

    But that doesn't explain why there is a historical gap of several hundred years where there is no mention of Assyrians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halgurd View Post
    Another possibility is that speakers of Akkadian simply adopted Aramaic due to its importance in religion as well as politically. Aramaic was a very powerful and useful language in the past.

    But that doesn't explain why there is a historical gap of several hundred years where there is no mention of Assyrians.
    Someone I know mentioned to me that the Assyrian identity had died and been revived like 3 different times over the last idk however many centuries.

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    Veteran Member Halgurd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FinalFlash View Post
    Someone I know mentioned to me that the Assyrian identity had died and been revived like 3 different times over the last idk however many centuries.
    That’s the thing how does an ethnic group die and revive itself?

    The original Assyrians most likely were assimilated into other ethnic groups, including into modern day Assyrians and other Iraqi groups which means that ancient Assyrian ancestry is not exclusive to modern day Assyrians. It seems to me that the modern Assyrian identity was born synonymous with a Christian identity. Aramaic speaking Christians of Mesopotamia must have simply chosen to adopt the Assyrian label.

    Even today some Assyrians (particularly Chaldeans) completely reject the Assyrian identity. It is very complex I must admit. They use historical ethnic names as religious terms. To many of them being a Chaldean is a religious sect, whereas historically it was the name of a powerful nation.

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    Veteran Member Halgurd's Avatar
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    Aramaic was the lingua franca of Mesopotamia during the Parthian/Roman period for several hundred years. Although it was originally associated with the Arameans it became a common language for this diverse region.
    Even the Kurdish dynasty of Adiabene (linked to the Hadhabani clan which Salahaddin Al Ayyubi came from) spoke Aramaic. Even Mandaeans and Kurdish Jews speak Aramaic, so it is not exclusive to Assyrians.

    I am certain now that the Assyrian label was simply adopted by the Christian communities of Mesopotamia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halgurd View Post
    The original Assyrians of the Bronze Age spoke a dialect of Akkadian and they are known to have made the first empire in civilisation.
    Modern day Assyrians speak Aramaic, which is related but different to Akkadian. The Arameans were a people at the time of the Assyrian Empire who emerged from the Levant, and not Mesopotamia. They were a separate people to the Assyrians and in fact they conflicted with each other on several occasions.

    How is it possible then for the Assyrians of today claim such a heritage? I am not denying their history, I simply do not see the link between modern and ancient Assyrians. If I am wrong, then I would appreciate an answer to this.

    A sub section of Assyrians today (though many of them claim they are a separate ethnic group) are the Chaldeans who were another ancient separate people and, like the Arameans, did not originate from Mesopotamia. They helped to rebuild Babylon after its destruction by the Assyrians. Modern day Chaldeans live in Iraq, but they speak Aramaic as well. A group of Chaldeans who claim a separate ethnicity to the Assyrians today claim heritage from the ancient Chaldeans, which perhaps may make more sense.

    From a genetic point of view Assyrians are very much a people of the region. But I think the link to ancient Assyrians simply isn’t there. I am very interested in knowing other people’s perspective on this topic.
    We live in historical Assyria, we call ourself Assyrian, our dialects evolved from the Aramaic our ancestors shifted to with a substantial Akkadian influence, we are autosomally almost identical to Iranian and Iraqi Jews who also just so happen to consider themself to be descendants of Mesopotamians(Babylonian Jewry). What is difficult to grasp exactly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halgurd View Post
    Aramaic was the lingua franca of Mesopotamia during the Parthian/Roman period for several hundred years. Although it was originally associated with the Arameans it became a common language for this diverse region.
    Even the Kurdish dynasty of Adiabene (linked to the Hadhabani clan which Salahaddin Al Ayyubi came from) spoke Aramaic. Even Mandaeans and Kurdish Jews speak Aramaic, so it is not exclusive to Assyrians.

    I am certain now that the Assyrian label was simply adopted by the Christian communities of Mesopotamia.
    Kuridsh dynasty of Adiabene?
    Ah I see now my post to you was a complete waste, you're a troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halgurd View Post
    That’s the thing how does an ethnic group die and revive itself?
    Quote Originally Posted by FinalFlash View Post
    Someone I know mentioned to me that the Assyrian identity had died and been revived like 3 different times over the last idk however many centuries.
    It never died. They simply changed their language from Akkadian to Aramaic. The name Assyrian has been in continuous usage by the same people since its inception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halgurd
    Even today some Assyrians (particularly Chaldeans) completely reject the Assyrian identity. It is very complex I must admit. They use historical ethnic names as religious terms. To many of them being a Chaldean is a religious sect, whereas historically it was the name of a powerful nation.
    They've only existed since the 16th century and only started claiming to be ethnic Chaldeans after they became Catholics following a schism in 1552.

    They call themselves Chaldean simply because their church is called that. Regarding why their church is called that, the reason is because after their communion with Rome (following their schism), the title "Patriarch of the Chaldeans" was given to their first patriarch by Rome. After Rome gave their patriarch that title, their church was called the "Chaldean Catholic Church".

    As for why Rome gave them that title, its cause Chaldea bordered Assyria and they were poor at geography. It may have also sounded cooler to them than "Patriarch of the Eastern Assyrians" (which was the the title Rome gave their patriarch at first before quickly changing it according to the Chronicle of the Carmelites).

    Still, the majority of Chaldean Catholics identify as Assyrian. Those that don't are just revisionists seeking a unique identity based on being Catholic following a geographic error from Rome. You won't see a single instance of "ethnic Chaldeans" being mentioned before 1553 (excluding ancient Chaldeans). They aren't even from geographic Chaldea. Its just their church's name, nothing more.

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