Who Were We In Antiquity?

[Kamal900]

We Arabs knew who we were during that time period, and we have epigraphic evidence on it as well:
https://www.academia.edu/41753832/Al...me_in_Safaitic


The Nabateans were an Arab tribe native in what is now Jordan, Southern Israel/Palestine and Southern Syria:

[Jana]

to put it simple, in my opinion, the average Balkanian is Slavic + Roman. These groups themselves were a mix of multiple earlier groups, which were recognized by Romans.

Slavs were probably a subtribe of Vistula Veneti who mixed with the Balts .

The Romans in the Balkans were a mix of local tribes (Illyrians,Dacians,Thracians) and Roman colonists (from Italy, Greece, and the Near East.) These Romans were similar to modern day southern Italians.

The Celtic, Scythian, etc. influences appear to have been much smaller, and they can't be detected in these simplistic DNA tools we currently have, but i'm sure they left some influence too.

for example, this is one of my models from Gedmatch:

66.1% Ukrainian + 33.9% South_Italian @ 5.27

66.1% Ukrainian, 33.9% South_Italian, and distance 5.27 , meaning this mix accounts for 95% of my Genome.

also check this PCA i made here:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...mal-DNA/page86

Albanians are also a mix of these elements, but they have much less Slavic, and more Roman influence.

Tuscan/Abruzzo may be good fit for pre-Slavic west Balkanites, mix of North Italian like Illyrians and Imperial Roman like DNA.
For east Balkan more south Italian/south Greek

But, keep in mind IA samples are usually always more southern than BA, and we have no IA samples from Croatia (one labaled IA is actually from late BA iirc)
So maybe even before influx of Roman blood pre-Slavic west balkan natives were more SE shifted than BA samples.

[Nomadic]

Where from Bosnia are you from?

I was born in Bugojno. That's where my moms family has been as far back I know, though they say they originated in Dalmatia (supposedly). My dads family was originally from Kupres, before that I don't know.

to put it simple, in my opinion, the average Balkanian is Slavic + Roman. These groups themselves were a mix of multiple earlier groups, which were recognized by Romans.

Slavs were probably a subtribe of Vistula Veneti who mixed with the Balts .

The Romans in the Balkans were a mix of local tribes (Illyrians,Dacians,Thracians) and Roman colonists (from Italy, Greece, and the Near East.) These Romans were similar to modern day southern Italians.

The Celtic, Scythian, etc. influences appear to have been much smaller, and they can't be detected in these simplistic DNA tools we currently have, but i'm sure they left some influence too.

for example, this is one of my models from Gedmatch:

66.1% Ukrainian + 33.9% South_Italian @ 5.27

66.1% Ukrainian, 33.9% South_Italian, and distance 5.27 , meaning this mix accounts for 95% of my Genome.

also check this PCA i made here:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6670891

Albanians are also a mix of these elements, but they have much less Slavic, and more Roman influence.

Well according to my K13 two population sharing I got this: 50% Greek_Thessaly +50% Ukrainian @ 5.416378

So I'm assuming Greek isn't actually Greek but Paleo-Balkan peoples that are related to Greeks (Illyrians or Thracians)?

That's how I'm interpreting this, I'm not a professional on the subject or the DNA tools from gedmatch

Here are your K13 updated Oracles. K13 is best gedmatch calculator for Europeans

Distance to: Nomadic

4.96195526 Serb_Croatia_Lika&Dalmatia
5.26600418 Serb_Croatia
5.35382107 Serb_Serbia
5.53870924 Serb_Serbia_West&Central
5.60808345 Serb
5.65834782 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
5.67498899 Bulgarian_Pleven
5.75992187 Serb_Herzegovina
5.76622060 Serb_B&H
5.89739773 Serb_Croatia_Kordun&Banija
5.99146059 Serb_B&H_Northeast&Central
5.99514804 Croat_Croatia_Istria&Kvarner
5.99932496 Bosniak
6.18216790 Croat_B&H_Herzegovina
6.22024115 Serb_Serbia_South&East
6.32111826 Bosniak_Sarajevo
6.32800126 Croat_Croatia_Dalmatia
6.54201804 Serb_B&H_Krajina
6.54661745 Croat_B&H
6.60979623 Hungarian_Csango
6.61083958 Croat_B&H_Bosnia
6.75177754 Romania_Moldavia_South
6.85916176 Romania_Moldavia_average
6.89010885 Croat_Croatia_Lika-Senj
7.10670810 Moldova_Centre

Your north atlantic and west asian are lower than average for Croat, but you are very much inside our variation, nothing strange about your results.
siberian/amerindian + south asian score indicates steppe influence

If you say your region of ancestry, I can include your result in our database.

Yeah those kinds of results are why I find Eurogenes weird. It plots me closer with Serbians than with Croatians, though I have no knowledge of any Serbian family. However, I guess Bosnians could be much more mixed than I know.

My K15 plots me closest to 1. Bulgarians 2. Romanians 3. Croatians 4. Serbians. Again very weird.

And my K36 plots me closest by far with Hungarians.

My MDLPK16 makes much more sense to me:
1 Croat (Croatia) 3.53
2 Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.61
3 Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.69
4 Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4
5 Serbian (Serbia) 4.41

But I don't want to detract from the original point of the thread too much...

Is there a page that has the definitions of the results (like, what they mean by Baltic, North Atlantic, etc)? Steppe influence, as in Avars/Scythians, or Indo-Europeans? I'm guessing North_Atlantic + Baltic is the Slavic influence? West Med and East Med is Paleo-Balkan?

P.S - Sorry if I caused any confusion for non-balkan people posting here. I put this thread in the Hrvatska forum, but maybe I should have called it "Who Were South Slavs In Antiquity". Obviously, if you want to discuss your own peoples places in this time period, you're welcome to.

[TheOldNorth]

In your case the early slavs probably looked something like the pre-roman contact iron age germans, with large seax like blades as short swords, spears, and shields made from wooden planks with a scraped and painted hide riveted to it's front, likely not much armor unless they trades with celts or scythians, and likely wore brightly colored green or blue clothes, sometimes plaid.

[TheMaestro]

Well as for Albanians, in many cases they do believe that Croats can be Illyrians from some parts.
As for trueancestry yeah that website is like biggest bullshit I’ve ever seen and buying there something decreases your IQ by huge margin.

[Mingle]

Well according to my K13 two population sharing I got this: 50% Greek_Thessaly +50% Ukrainian @ 5.416378

So I'm assuming Greek isn't actually Greek but Paleo-Balkan peoples that are related to Greeks (Illyrians or Thracians)?

That's how I'm interpreting this, I'm not a professional on the subject or the DNA tools from gedmatch

Sort of. Technically, it is actually Greek, but Greek is favored here since there are no Illyrian samples. You can just think of all the southern populations as being Paleo-Balkan proxies to various degrees.

Yeah those kinds of results are why I find Eurogenes weird. It plots me closer with Serbians than with Croatians, though I have no knowledge of any Serbian family. However, I guess Bosnians could be much more mixed than I know.

My K15 plots me closest to 1. Bulgarians 2. Romanians 3. Croatians 4. Serbians. Again very weird.

And my K36 plots me closest by far with Hungarians.

My MDLPK16 makes much more sense to me:
1 Croat (Croatia) 3.53
2 Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.61
3 Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.69
4 Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4
5 Serbian (Serbia) 4.41

But I don't want to detract from the original point of the thread too much...

Eurogenes K13 and K36 are considered the best calculators for Europeans.

Croats have more diversity than Serbs. When you look at the Croat individual samples, they range from around 28% Baltic to 36% Baltic in the same region. When you average them all, then the average may not be close to many Croats. If you look at the Croat samples individually, there are many that score like you.. On a PCA with individual samples, you'll be close to many Croats.

Interesting that you get Hungarian as your closest by far in K36. Not sure how to explain that cause your genetics don't seem Hungarian at all. Could you post your K36?

Is there a page that has the definitions of the results (like, what they mean by Baltic, North Atlantic, etc)? Steppe influence, as in Avars/Scythians, or Indo-Europeans? I'm guessing North_Atlantic + Baltic is the Slavic influence? West Med and East Med is Paleo-Balkan?

All these components are present in the populations you mentioned (Indo-Europeans, Avars, etc).

North Atlantic peaks in NW Euros, Baltic speaks in Lithuanians, West Med peaks in Sardinians, West Asian peaks in Abkhazians, East Med peaks in the Lebanese, and Red Sea peaks in Saudis. But these are ancient components and have been embedded in much of West Eurasia for several thousands of years now.

Higher Slavic ancestry is correlated with high Baltic, higher Germanic ancestry with high North Atlantic, and higher Paleo-Balkan/Roman ancestry with higher Mediterranean ancestry (especially West Med).

There is little to no Avar/Scythian ancestry among Croats, but if it does exist, then it would be represented by higher East Eurasian since that's a component unique to those types of peoples not present in most of Europe. But if you get it at 1-2%, its not really that uncommon and doesn't mean you have their DNA.

P.S - Sorry if I caused any confusion for non-balkan people posting here. I put this thread in the Hrvatska forum, but maybe I should have called it "Who Were South Slavs In Antiquity". Obviously, if you want to discuss your own peoples places in this time period, you're welcome to.

Maybe, but I don't think it should be much of an issue. I think most people understand the thread is about Croats based on the subforum its posted in and in what you write in your OP.

[vbnetkhio]

I was born in Bugojno. That's where my moms family has been as far back I know, though they say they originated in Dalmatia (supposedly). My dads family was originally from Kupres, before that I don't know.



Well according to my K13 two population sharing I got this: 50% Greek_Thessaly +50% Ukrainian @ 5.416378

So I'm assuming Greek isn't actually Greek but Paleo-Balkan peoples that are related to Greeks (Illyrians or Thracians)?

yes, exactly. But Thessalians also have some Slavic influence, so this model shows you as little bit less Slavic then you really are. That's why i used South Italy as an example, they have no Slavic admixture.

Yeah those kinds of results are why I find Eurogenes weird. It plots me closer with Serbians than with Croatians, though I have no knowledge of any Serbian family. However, I guess Bosnians could be much more mixed than I know.

My K15 plots me closest to 1. Bulgarians 2. Romanians 3. Croatians 4. Serbians. Again very weird.

And my K36 plots me closest by far with Hungarians.

My MDLPK16 makes much more sense to me:
1 Croat (Croatia) 3.53
2 Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.61
3 Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 3.69
4 Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) 4
5 Serbian (Serbia) 4.41

the problem is these are just the averages. Individual Croats can have 22-40 Baltic, and the average is 32. North Atlantic ranges from 19 - 36, and the average is 28, etc.
All these oracles just compare you to the average. you are a bit more southern because of less North Atlantic, so you get the Serb average first. Some Croats who are more northern also don't get Croat first, but Austrian, for example.

Is there a page that has the definitions of the results (like, what they mean by Baltic, North Atlantic, etc)? Steppe influence, as in Avars/Scythians, or Indo-Europeans? I'm guessing North_Atlantic + Baltic is the Slavic influence? West Med and East Med is Paleo-Balkan?

None of these components correspond 100% to one population. North Atlantic and Baltic are mostly related to Indo-Europeans and Western Hunter Gatherers, but North Atlantic peaks in Irish, British and Basque, and Baltic peaks in Baltic peoples. West Med and East Med are both related to Neolithic Farmers, but West Med peaks in Sardinians and East med in the Levant.

The better way of interperting this is to check how different modern and ancient populations score in the Vahaduo k13 udpated and k13 ancient spreadsheet. Both Paleo Balkanians and Slavs probably had around 25% North Atlantic, so that's not a good marker of Slavic admixture. But Paleo Balkanians had much less Baltic, around 10% and Slavs had around 45%.

[Nomadic]

Well as for Albanians, in many cases they do believe that Croats can be Illyrians from some parts.

Actually that reminds me of a story. When I was a teenager I worked at Home Depot (a home improvement retail store). And I was helping some guys load drywall into their truck, they noticed my very south slavic sounding name-tag and asked me where I was from. Turns out they were Albanian and they kept calling me an Illyrian warrior lmao

Sort of. Technically, it is actually Greek, but Greek is favored here since there are no Illyrian samples. You can just think of all the southern populations as being Paleo-Balkan proxies to various degrees.



Eurogenes K13 and K36 are considered the best calculators for Europeans.

Croats have more diversity than Serbs. When you look at the Croat individual samples, they range from around 28% Baltic to 36% Baltic in the same region. When you average them all, then the average may not be close to many Croats. If you look at the Croat samples individually, there are many that score like you.. On a PCA with individual samples, you'll be close to many Croats.

Interesting that you get Hungarian as your closest by far in K36. Not sure how to explain that cause your genetics don't seem Hungarian at all. Could you post your K36?



All these components are present in the populations you mentioned (Indo-Europeans, Avars, etc).

North Atlantic peaks in NW Euros, Baltic speaks in Lithuanians, West Med peaks in Sardinians, West Asian peaks in Abkhazians, East Med peaks in the Lebanese, and Red Sea peaks in Saudis. But these are ancient components and have been embedded in much of West Eurasia for several thousands of years now.

Higher Slavic ancestry is correlated with high Baltic, higher Germanic ancestry with high North Atlantic, and higher Paleo-Balkan/Roman ancestry with higher Mediterranean ancestry (especially West Med).

There is little to no Avar/Scythian ancestry among Croats, but if it does exist, then it would be represented by higher East Eurasian since that's a component unique to those types of peoples not present in most of Europe. But if you get it at 1-2%, its not really that uncommon and doesn't mean you have their DNA.


Maybe, but I don't think it should be much of an issue. I think most people understand the thread is about Croats based on the subforum its posted in and in what you write in your OP.

That's all very enlightening thank you for the explanation. I do recall reading that autosomally Bulgarians/Macedonians cluster more south, Croats-Bosnians more north, and Serbs/Montenegrins are kind of the in the middle. If I do have more southern ancestry than the average Croat then it makes sense why I cluster with Serbs, Bulgars and Romanians on some of these tests.

With that in mind, the fact that I seem to cluster with those particular groups (and seem to be less related to Albanians by comparison) would that mean I'd have more of a Dacian/Thracian heritage than Illyrian? Or do you think Illyrians are not necessarily fully in line with Albanians. I mean, I think Albanians have a lot of Greek heritage (Epirus) personally, along with Illyrian from the region. It's quite possible the Illyrian tribes from x-yu territories were different I suppose?

Yeah here's my Eurogenes K36:
Basque 1.78 Pct
Central_Euro 6.90 Pct
East_Balkan 6.67 Pct
East_Central_Euro 14.12 Pct
East_Med 6.00 Pct
Eastern_Euro 10.40 Pct
Fennoscandian 6.94 Pct
Iberian 11.18 Pct
Italian 8.94 Pct
Near_Eastern 2.08 Pct
North_Atlantic 7.98 Pct
North_Caucasian 5.41 Pct
North_Sea 5.31 Pct
Volga-Ural 0.59 Pct
West_Med 5.68 Pct

I took out the ones with 0%, also I already made a map:
K36.png

yes, exactly. But Thessalians also have some Slavic influence, so this model shows you as little bit less Slavic then you really are. That's why i used South Italy as an example, they have no Slavic admixture.



the problem is these are just the averages. Individual Croats can have 22-40 Baltic, and the average is 32. North Atlantic ranges from 19 - 36, and the average is 28, etc.
All these oracles just compare you to the average. you are a bit more southern because of less North Atlantic, so you get the Serb average first. Some Croats who are more northern also don't get Croat first, but Austrian, for example.



None of these components correspond 100% to one population. North Atlantic and Baltic are mostly related to Indo-Europeans and Western Hunter Gatherers, but North Atlantic peaks in Irish, British and Basque, and Baltic peaks in Baltic peoples. West Med and East Med are both related to Neolithic Farmers, but West Med peaks in Sardinians and East med in the Levant.

The better way of interperting this is to check how different modern and ancient populations score in the Vahaduo k13 udpated and k13 ancient spreadsheet. Both Paleo Balkanians and Slavs probably had around 25% North Atlantic, so that's not a good marker of Slavic admixture. But Paleo Balkanians had much less Baltic, around 10% and Slavs had around 45%.

Great points. The Sclavenians ransacked much of Greece at one point, surely did some mixing. And yeah I thought of the later as well, "wouldn't Paleo-Balkans also be a mix of these old populations?" I assume they'd just have more of whats common in Greeks/Albanians/Italians like west med/east med

[vbnetkhio]

Great points. The Sclavenians ransacked much of Greece at one point, surely did some mixing. And yeah I thought of the later as well, "wouldn't Paleo-Balkans also be a mix of these old populations?" I assume they'd just have more of whats common in Greeks/Albanians/Italians like west med/east med

yes. here is one sample that works well as my pre-Slavic population:

R107_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

North_Atlantic 19.55
Baltic 9.36
West_Med 22.73
West_Asian 10.72
East_Med 28.57
Red_Sea 6.5
South_Asian 0.23
East_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0.89
Oceanian 1.46
Northeast_Afr 0
Sub-Saharan 0

he was probably a mix of Iron age Italians, like Latini, who were similar to Illyrians, and Middle eastern Romans.
soon a study of Roman era Serbian samples is copming out, i expect them to be very similar to this.

[Kaspias]

yes. here is one sample that works well as my pre-Slavic population:

R107_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity

North_Atlantic 19.55
Baltic 9.36
West_Med 22.73
West_Asian 10.72
East_Med 28.57
Red_Sea 6.5
South_Asian 0.23
East_Asian 0
Siberian 0
Amerindian 0.89
Oceanian 1.46
Northeast_Afr 0
Sub-Saharan 0

he was probably a mix of Iron age Italians, like Latini, who were similar to Illyrians, and Middle eastern Romans.
soon a study of Roman era Serbian samples is copming out, i expect them to be very similar to this.

You will get this result if you remove Slavic admixture from contemporary Vlach's. Applied here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...to-Romanian-K2

What differences do you expect between Illyrians and Thracians?