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Thread: White Croat genetics in Serbs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoroLP View Post
    Answer to the first question would be since the Serbs are mentioned in 630s as a tribe which was for a long time under Frankish rule, implying late 6th and early 7th century, while the expansion of the Slavs was between early 6th and mid 7th century, they were at least in that period a formed tribe, and it is vague if could have been a formed tribe before the expansion and arrival to the Balkans.

    Answer to the second question would be clearly no because there is not a single historical record that claims some did stay behind like in the case of the Croats.
    There is this mention of Servia we already discussed. Another thing, not a historical source, but very important for this, is that Moldovans used to call their local east Slavic dialect Serbian.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoroLP View Post
    The Serbs are very early mentioned among Wends, for unknown reason, which isn't necessarily related to the archaeological data and consideration as possible carriers of middle Danube valley culture. It is almost impossible to surely correlate archaeological data with a specific tribal identity, these are two different dimensions, one is social and fluid, other is material and general. Archaeologist already have hard time differentiating between broad groups like Slavs, Gepids, Goths, Avars and so on, differentiating sub-group tribal identities is impossible from archaeological perspective. Relating them is a bold claim related to historical perspective, but exceptional claims need exceptional evidence, and there aren't really exceptional evidence for both the Serbs and Croats, they are thin threads.
    but to put it simple, Serbs could have arrived there either through the "Czecho-Slovak" Slavic migration route or from the Middle Danube, right? and the Middle Danube theory agrees more with genetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoroLP View Post
    I don't remember reading any connection with the region of Moldova, they were mentioned in relation to the Southwestern Ukraine and Southeastern Poland. Yes, Nestor mentions them as White Croats but with the Serbs and Carinthians, and other West Slavs, which could imply both Southern or Western Croats, but not the Eastern Croats. He does mention Eastern Croats, but without the designation of "white", so those in the West could be "white" in the sense of Western from the Eastern Croats or Northern from the Southern Croats.

    According to chronicles, both Kievan Rus in late 10th century and Poland in late 10th or early 11th century conquered the Croats. In other words, some Croats who were West of Kievan Rus and within or East of Lesser Poland.
    ok, interesting, so White Croats could indeed be the western ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vbnetkhio View Post
    There is this mention of Servia we already discussed. Another thing, not a historical source, but very important for this, is that Moldovans used to call their local east Slavic dialect Serbian... but to put it simple, Serbs could have arrived there either through the "Czecho-Slovak" Slavic migration route or from the Middle Danube, right? and the Middle Danube theory agrees more with genetics.
    As we already discussed that mention of Servia is problematic and neither Zivkovic relates it to the Carpathians. Regarding the Moldovan dialect, can you give some more information? How is that information important if on the first glance, knowing when dialects form and then only later people call them in a specific manner and for various reasons, is seemingly modern and anachronistic and doesn't have any relation whatsoever in the context of Early Middle Ages?

    Yes, the Serbs among the Wends could have migrated there from two different routes. Saying that the Middle Danube theory agrees more with genetics is a bold claim, more like confirmation bias. Knowing, according to current results, how low is the frequency and variety of PH908 in Germany & Czech Republic, that I2 as a whole is almost absent from the Sorbs who also mainly have another subclade of R1a > M458 > L260 not or rarely found among the contemporary Serbs - according to Occam's razor there's some serious issues with the hypotheses about the origin and migration of the tribe of Serbs. There are just too many assumptions not based on direct evidence and with too much ignorance of the context, other tribes, time periods and effects which affect a population. The contemporary genetical results do not clearly and directly support the hypotheses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoroLP View Post
    As we already discussed that mention of Servia is problematic and neither Zivkovic relates it to the Carpathians. Regarding the Moldovan dialect, can you give some more information? How is that information important if on the first glance, knowing when dialects form and then only later people call them in a specific manner and for various reasons, is seemingly modern and anachronistic and doesn't have any relation whatsoever in the context of Early Middle Ages?
    it was mentioned by user Aspirin on this forum. In medieval Moldova there were Romanian newcomers, and an older Slavic population which was previously ruled by Kievan Rus. The east Slavic dialect of the local Slavs was one of the official languages, and it was called sîrbie/сырбие. Why would that be? Maybe these local Slavs had a conscousness of a distant Serb origin?

    I can find it only briefly mentioned on Russian sites by googling "сырбие". maybe Moldovan members here could post more information from Moldovan sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoroLP View Post
    Yes, the Serbs among the Wends could have migrated there from two different routes. Saying that the Middle Danube theory agrees more with genetics is a bold claim, more like confirmation bias. Knowing, according to current results, how low is the frequency and variety of PH908 in Germany & Czech Republic, that I2 as a whole is almost absent from the Sorbs who also mainly have another subclade of R1a > M458 > L260 not or rarely found among the contemporary Serbs - according to Occam's razor there's some serious issues with the hypotheses about the origin and migration of the tribe of Serbs. There are just too many assumptions not based on direct evidence and with too much ignorance of the context, other tribes, time periods and effects which affect a population. The contemporary genetical results do not clearly and directly support the hypotheses.
    It's anachronistic to connect Lusatian Sorbs with Serbs in the context of early Slavic migrations. A Serb tribe, and later a Serb tribal alliance were both originally mentioned in east of the Elbe, in today's Saxony and Thuringia, not in Lusatia . In Lusatia, there was a Luzicani tribal alliance and a Milcani tribal Alliance. The Milcani area (upper Lusatia) was first reffered to as Serbian around the year 1200, and the Luzicani area (Lower Lusatia) a Serb ethnonym is mentioned in 1548. These are the earliest mentions i could find, and this is long after the period of initial Slavic migrations. The Serb ethnonym somehow spread later to the Luzicani and Milcani, we can only discuss how and why, but it's not important for this discussion.

    Also, if we look at archaeology, in the sixth century, Lusatia was settled by Slavs from Silesia, this was a branch of a larger Polish or Lechitic migration, which has a strong correlation with R-L260, while Slavs in Saxony/Thuringia came from Bohemia and the Middle Danube, and these two areas (Lusatia and Saxony/Thuringia) were separated by a densely forested area, and had a different archaeological culture. It is expected that these two groups of Slavs won't have the same Y-dna haplogroups.

    So let's just look at the Slavic Y-DNA in the Saxony and Thuringia areas. Slavic R1a seems much more numerous. it falls under small local subclades, which are absent in Hungary and the Balkans, like these https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP445/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y35225/

    Then, there are I-A815, I-PH908, and R-YP4278 which have a strong correlation with the Ukraine>Moldova>Wallachia route. These haplogroups are much less numerous than the former, which would fit with a smaller warrior group from the Middle Danube, arriving later to an area which was already densely populated by Slavs. They would then unite a dozen local tribes under their rule and form the Sorbian tribal alliance.

    If we forget what i just said and just use Occam's razor, it would be : There is PH908 among Serbs, there is PH908 among Germanized Sorbs, therefore the early Slavic Serbs/Sorbs spread this haplogroup. But there's no need to simplify it like this.

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    Interesting, we need more information on that. Knowing how languages and dialect evolve and are named for now I cannot take it seriously enough without reliable sources. It is in the realm of "what if", and on this "what if" is based another "what if" of an ancient Serb origin. Too much assumptions, needs verification and proof.

    Again, Sedov and other scholars connect Upper Sorbian dialect due to difference between dialects and population with the Serbian tribe which possibly brought the Middle Danube culture. It is very important to discuss how and why the Serb ethnonym spread to other tribes, which again, other scholars consider as smaller tribes of the Serbs itself because are mentioned centuries later compared to 7th century mention of the Serbs, and it is highly unlikely the ethnonym spread without any anthropological-genetical exchange, and the proximity between them isn't so great to be ignored. I understand your viewpoint and go in favor of it (where is based enough on valid arguments), but claiming there was no connection between them because genetic results don't go into favor of preheld belief or thesis is confirmation bias and as such another viewpoint could be more true.

    The tribe of the Serbs could spread it, but in what amount and what subclades because we are not dealing with the spread of PH908 itself either yet its subclades. If are only two subclades, plus few more of other haplogroups, that's more plausible then many subclades of a single haplogroup, but again, while discussing these migrations of the Serbs (and Croats) is too much ignored the fact they represent a confederation of smaller tribes or clans and that many other tribes migrated as well. We most probably won't ever know the real truth, especially not about one specific single tribe.

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    Regarding Moldovan dialect, think that found Aspirin's post (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6355973), but there's no source and don't see any ancient Serbian connection yet as expected then contemporary political-liturgical influence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoroLP View Post
    Interesting, we need more information on that. Knowing how languages and dialect evolve and are named for now I cannot take it seriously enough without reliable sources. It is in the realm of "what if", and on this "what if" is based another "what if" of an ancient Serb origin. Too much assumptions, needs verification and proof.
    I'm not arguing this dialect in Moldova had any similarity to Serbian. My understanding is that during Kievan Rus the local dialects of Slavic tribes lost their specificites, and an Old East Slavic language with a dialectal continuum was formed. So this dialect was just similar to West Ukrainian dialects. But the local Slavic population might have kept a tradition of a distant Serbian origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoroLP View Post
    Again, Sedov and other scholars connect Upper Sorbian dialect due to difference between dialects and population with the Serbian tribe which possibly brought the Middle Danube culture.
    Well, i think the scholars contradicted themselves here a bit. These are 5 tribal alliances mentioned in the 9th century:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...0%BA%D0%B0.svg

    and this is the supposed dialectal map in the 9th century, the green dotted line separates Upper and Lower Sorbian:

    https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94...0%BA%D1%83.svg

    Now, if the western and eastern tribes came from different migration waves, were separated from each other by natural barriers, formed separate states (tribal alliances), which only temporarily united on some occasions to fight the Franks, why would the dialects form like that? why would Milcani and and the southern half of proper Sorbs speak the same dialect?

    To me it would make more sense the language of proper Sorbs and Dalemintians was completely lost to German assimilation, and Upper Sorbian is a direct descendant of the Milcani language, and Lower Sorbian of Luzicani language.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoroLP View Post
    It is very important to discuss how and why the Serb ethnonym spread to other tribes, which again, other scholars consider as smaller tribes of the Serbs itself because are mentioned centuries later compared to 7th century mention of the Serbs, and it is highly unlikely the ethnonym spread without any anthropological-genetical exchange, and the proximity between them isn't so great to be ignored. I understand your viewpoint and go in favor of it (where is based enough on valid arguments), but claiming there was no connection between them because genetic results don't go into favor of preheld belief or thesis is confirmation bias and as such another viewpoint could be more true.
    Scholars already noticed this spread of the Serb ethnonym, long before genetics were around.

    In Bohemia and western Poland, there are many settlements which are assumed to have been founded by the Sorb refugees from Saxony. There we also find Y-DNA connections to Saxony and the Balkan Serbs. So Sorbs of course weren't frozen in place east of the Elbe, but migrated around.

    But why are there no such toponyms and Y-DNA traces, or so extremely few of them, in Lusatia? It's as if migration of proper Sorbs into Lusatia was nonexistant.

    Perhaps "Sorb" somehow took the meaning of border guard, and those Slavs currently at the German border were automatically Sorbs? Like "Vlach" was originally an ethnicity, and later a social caste. The Franks had a "limes Sorabicus" despite there were other tribes along that border, not only Sorbs. Maybe there's a connection there.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoroLP View Post
    The tribe of the Serbs could spread it, but in what amount and what subclades because we are not dealing with the spread of PH908 itself either yet its subclades. If are only two subclades, plus few more of other haplogroups, that's more plausible then many subclades of a single haplogroup, but again, while discussing these migrations of the Serbs (and Croats) is too much ignored the fact they represent a confederation of smaller tribes or clans and that many other tribes migrated as well. We most probably won't ever know the real truth, especially not about one specific single tribe.
    i agree. but every new BIG Y test from these regions gives us more insight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoroLP View Post
    Regarding Moldovan dialect, think that found Aspirin's post (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6355973), but there's no source and don't see any ancient Serbian connection yet as expected then contemporary political-liturgical influence.
    First time I'm hearing that Slavic dialects from Moldova were called Serbian. In the middle ages, we had Ruthenian and Russian mentioned, by which the authors usually meant Ruthenian anyway.
    But interestingly enough, Sîrbu (Serb) is the 7th most popular surname in Moldova. Its derivative and probably more archaic, Sîrghi, falls into top 200.
    I know that in Wallachia, Bulgarians were often times called Serbs, so maybe this is just another example of a naming mistake.

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    Yeah, I would be great that Moldova is our ancient homeland.
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    Yellow Bosniak blood in Red Croats and Pink Serbs

    Someone should make a thread about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion Basescul View Post
    First time I'm hearing that Slavic dialects from Moldova were called Serbian. In the middle ages, we had Ruthenian and Russian mentioned, by which the authors usually meant Ruthenian anyway.
    But interestingly enough, Sîrbu (Serb) is the 7th most popular surname in Moldova. Its derivative and probably more archaic, Sîrghi, falls into top 200.
    I know that in Wallachia, Bulgarians were often times called Serbs, so maybe this is just another example of a naming mistake.
    What could be the reason for that? Maybe there was an early contact between Romanians and Serbs, and then later Romanians called any Slavic group "Serb" ?

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