Kurds: Rank from closer to further

[Trouble]

Maybe the sample sizes are still too limited?

In terms of the Kurdish samples? Or the Scythians?

On G25 Kurds come out as 88% Iran ChL and 12% Saka Kazakh steppe. You might get variation here and there but I don't think you will get close to 30%.

Unless there were some Sakas that were much more BMAC/Iran_N shifted compared to the ones on G25.

[FinalFlash]

In terms of the Kurdish samples? Or the Scythians?

On G25 Kurds come out as 88% Iran ChL and 12% Saka Kazakh steppe. You might get variation here and there but I don't think you will get close to 30%.

Unless there were some Sakas that were much more BMAC/Iran_N shifted compared to the ones on G25.

Maybe the number of Kurdish samples aren't enough on G25? I mean are we really going to get an accurate image of like 5 samples for an entire ethnic group? Do we even know where these Kurds are from?

I mean if the Armenian 'academic' samples differ noticeably to their real life counterparts, then it's possible Kurds do as well. Or any ethnicity for that matter. Besides, on Vahaduo Kurds average around 20% Steppe which is more than what G25 indicates so how do we know which is more accurate, really?

[Trouble]

Maybe the number of Kurdish samples aren't enough on G25? I mean are we really going to get an accurate image of like 5 samples for an entire ethnic group? Do we even know where these Kurds are from?

I mean if the Armenian 'academic' samples differ noticeably to their real life counterparts, then it's possible Kurds do as well. Or any ethnicity for that matter. Besides, on Vahaduo Kurds average around 20% Steppe which is more than what G25 indicates so how do we know which is more accurate, really?

I understand what you're saying but the variation can't possibly be that massive. Also we would see some discrepancies if it were really the case.

And can you post that model from Vahaduo?

[FinalFlash]

I understand what you're saying but the variation can't possibly be that massive. Also we would see some discrepancies if it were really the case.

And can you post that model from Vahaduo?

Sure thing. Here you are.

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.3381% / 0.01338135
32.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
30.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
19.2 RUS_Catacomb
10.4 Levant_Natufian
7.2 GEO_CHG
0.0 Saka_Kazakh_steppe

19.2% Steppe derived on average so about 20% as I've stated previously which is just about double what G25 suggests. That's a pretty big change imo. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Kurds on average had more than 20% steppe. I think steppe admixture in West Asia has generally been understated over the years on anthroforums. I think it depends on the samples and sample size as well. I don't think you'll get an accurate picture for an ethnic group of 10s of millions based off of 5-10 samples which ignores regional variations among other things as I've brought up before.

[Trouble]

Sure thing. Here you are.

Target: Kurdish
Distance: 1.3381% / 0.01338135
32.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
30.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
19.2 RUS_Catacomb
10.4 Levant_Natufian
7.2 GEO_CHG
0.0 Saka_Kazakh_steppe

19.2% Steppe derived on average so about 20% as I've stated previously which is just about double what G25 suggests. That's a pretty big change imo. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Kurds on average had more than 20% steppe. I think steppe admixture in West Asia has generally been understated over the years on anthroforums. I think it depends on the samples and sample size as well. I don't think you'll get an accurate picture for an ethnic group of 10s of millions based off of 5-10 samples which ignores regional variations among other things as I've brought up before.

Ok it could be a result of not filtering outliers. I typically filter out anything at 25% or above the group average.

[FinalFlash]

Ok it could be a result of not filtering outliers. I typically filter out anything at 25% or above the group average.

Not sure if Vahaduo has that option or not but the kits seem to be fairly homogenous. What does it mean when something is at 25% or above group average?

[Trouble]

Not sure if Vahaduo has that option or not but the kits seem to be fairly homogenous. What does it mean when something is at 25% or above group average?

It is an outlier for whatever reason. Possibly due to contamination or being mixed/displaced.

[SharpFork]

I have a hard time seeing how Kurds are 30% Scythian.

How can it be that Scythians left virtually no trace anywhere except in West Asia where they didn't even exist? They lived in the Eurasian steppe.

Scythian-Cimmerians went through the Caucasus and invaded Assyria, Urartu and the Phrygians in the 8-7th century and later on the Steppe-admixed Parthians went on to conquer all the plateau and leaving local dynasties that ruled their territories for about 8 centuries until the Islamic invasion. Also Turks probably mediated some newer Steppe ancestry too. That could explain some amount of new Steppe ancestry.

I wouldn't call Scythians a genetic dead end, Turks definitely have been influenced by them everywhere they were and I imagine the modern genetics of Afghanistan and surrounds cannot be fully explained by the the initial Iranization, the Hazaras alone show how much Turks influenced an Iranian speaking ethnic group.

[Zoro]

I think you should ask the guy that wrote the article. He is one of my mentors but I think that the basic model of about 70% Iran Chl + 30% Sarmatian/Saka related still holds. His article shows that it has to be Saka related because Turkmenistan IA and Sintashta MLBA which lack the E. Asian Sarmatians/Sakas have did not produce good fits. You can also see this in his dstats also where the biggest difference between Kurds and Chalcolithic Iranians are with E. Eurasian dstats. The shift towards the east and central asia of kurds compared to armenians makes sense in this light as well as kurdish and balochi being on the parthian branch of indo-iranian whereas armenian is on its seperate branch of indo-european.


Anyways if you contact Dilawer directly he will be able to confirm for sure.

He just got back to me. He says that formal stats now shows that Sarmatian-Kazakhstan is a better proxy for the Steppe/E.Asian combo in Kurds. He didn't have those genomes when he did the article. As far as numbers he said that 70-80% native Iranian Chalcolithic + 20-30% Sarmatian depending on the individual Kurd.

Wrt to E. Asian admixture in Kurds he said that whether we use the Lake Baikal Shamanka-EN genomes or whether we use modern Buryats the formal models agree/are consistent with 5-9% E. Asian in Kurds again depending on the individual. I asked him to send me some outputs. He said he will send them later.

He also pointed out that its important to remove the low coverage samples from the run for maximum accuracy and to use as many SNPs as possible. He said there are 3 higher coverage Haji Firuz Chl samples and 7 Shamanka-EN samples that he uses in the run.

[Zoro]

I also asked him about Balochi/Kurdish being on the Parthian sub-branch of Median of Indo-Iranian. He says the events that distanced Kurds from Baloch the most is when after Kurds-Baloch split Kurds absorbed additional Anatolian related and Baloch absorbed additional ASI. These 2 events distanced them the most genetically. He says he can see this because when he removes Anatolia-N from the outgroups in qpAdm Kurds and especially Iranian Baloch converge.