100% East Prussian German K15/K13 results

[Peterski]

Interesting that scores as top 1st Estonian in Single Distances, obviously must have a lot of Old Prussian ancestry:

Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 27.08
2 North_Sea 26.83
3 Eastern_Euro 18.27
4 Atlantic 17.98
5 West_Asian 3.33
6 West_Med 2.43
7 East_Med 1.92
8 South_Asian 1.35
9 Oceanian 0.55
10 Sub-Saharan 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Estonian 5.44
2 Polish 5.64
3 South_Polish 6.2
4 Ukrainian 7.16
5 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.52
6 Finnish 8.11
7 Belorussian 8.31
8 Russian_Smolensk 8.45
9 Southwest_Finnish 8.46
10 Southwest_Russian 8.88
11 Estonian_Polish 9.24
12 Ukrainian_Belgorod 9.49
13 Lithuanian 10.62
14 East_Finnish 10.7
15 Hungarian 11.54
16 Croatian 12.07
17 East_German 12.12
18 Kargopol_Russian 12.18
19 La_Brana-1 13.01
20 Austrian 13.67

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.5% Belorussian + 32.5% Swedish @ 2.47
2 57.1% Lithuanian + 42.9% North_Swedish @ 2.58
3 63.9% Lithuanian + 36.1% Norwegian @ 2.61
4 61.5% Lithuanian + 38.5% Swedish @ 2.61
5 72.4% Belorussian + 27.6% West_Norwegian @ 2.75
6 63.5% Belorussian + 36.5% North_Swedish @ 2.77
7 66.7% Lithuanian + 33.3% West_Norwegian @ 2.77
8 65.2% Lithuanian + 34.8% Danish @ 2.78
9 70% Belorussian + 30% Norwegian @ 2.85
10 65.7% Lithuanian + 34.3% North_Dutch @ 2.96
11 69.8% Lithuanian + 30.2% Orcadian @ 2.98
12 66.3% Southwest_Russian + 33.7% Swedish @ 3.06
13 79.4% Estonian + 20.6% North_German @ 3.16
14 72.5% Estonian + 27.5% East_German @ 3.16
15 75.2% Estonian + 24.8% Austrian @ 3.22
16 62.8% Lithuanian + 37.2% North_German @ 3.22
17 82.3% Estonian + 17.7% West_German @ 3.29
18 71.8% Estonian + 28.2% Hungarian @ 3.3
19 82.2% Estonian + 17.8% South_Dutch @ 3.3
20 65.5% Estonian_Polish + 34.5% Swedish @ 3.35

Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 44.04
2 North_Atlantic 34.31
3 West_Med 6.38
4 East_Med 6.08
5 West_Asian 5.13
6 South_Asian 1.94
7 Oceanian 0.77
8 Siberian 0.72
9 Sub-Saharan 0.45
10 Amerindian 0.18

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Polish 5.83
2 South_Polish 5.86
3 Belorussian 6.9
4 Russian_Smolensk 7.47
5 Southwest_Finnish 7.74
6 Estonian_Polish 7.88
7 Ukrainian 7.9
8 Southwest_Russian 8.35
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.57
10 Estonian 8.58
11 Ukrainian_Belgorod 8.77
12 Finnish 8.95
13 Lithuanian 10.83
14 East_Finnish 11.72
15 Kargopol_Russian 11.79
16 North_Swedish 12.43
17 Croatian 12.63
18 East_German 13.23
19 Hungarian 13.24
20 Erzya 14.98

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.8% Belorussian + 25.2% North_German @ 2.68
2 76.7% Belorussian + 23.3% Danish @ 2.69
3 77.3% Belorussian + 22.7% North_Dutch @ 2.9
4 76.7% Belorussian + 23.3% Norwegian @ 2.97
5 73.5% Belorussian + 26.5% Swedish @ 2.97
6 80.4% Belorussian + 19.6% West_Scottish @ 3.1
7 79.6% Belorussian + 20.4% Southeast_English @ 3.12
8 79.9% Belorussian + 20.1% Irish @ 3.12
9 79.3% Belorussian + 20.7% Orcadian @ 3.14
10 81.2% Belorussian + 18.8% Southwest_English @ 3.39
11 61% Southwest_Russian + 39% North_Swedish @ 3.4
12 66.6% Belorussian + 33.4% North_Swedish @ 3.41
13 59.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 40.3% North_Swedish @ 3.44
14 78.7% Belorussian + 21.3% West_German @ 3.54
15 74.7% Estonian_Polish + 25.3% Danish @ 3.57
16 72.7% Estonian_Polish + 27.3% North_German @ 3.61
17 69.5% Southwest_Russian + 30.5% Swedish @ 3.62
18 71.1% Estonian_Polish + 28.9% Swedish @ 3.67
19 79.5% Belorussian + 20.5% South_Dutch @ 3.67
20 74.5% Estonian_Polish + 25.5% Norwegian @ 3.71

[Karol Klačansky]

Essentially balto-Slavic

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Peterski]

Essentially balto-Slavic

Yes but I have also other East Prussians, some of whom score very Germanic. There is a lot of diversity for such a small territory.

Not to mention Vistula Delta Mennonites, who are almost fully NW Euro.

So, there is the whole range from almost fully NW Euro, to almost fully Baltic, to almost fully Slavic - all within this small region.

[SharpFork]

I find hilarious how some people treat German colonization and crusades in the East as some sort of genocide in light of this, lol

[Norb]

Yes but I have also other East Prussians, some of whom score very Germanic. There is a lot of diversity for such a small territory.

Not to mention Vistula Delta Mennonites, who are almost fully NW Euro.

So, there is the whole range from almost fully NW Euro, to almost fully Baltic, to almost fully Slavic - all within this small region.

can you compare the most Germanic East Prussian sample with Anglo-Saxon samples?

[Jana]

Scores less North Sea on K15 than I do...

[Peterski]

I find hilarious how some people treat German colonization and crusades in the East as some sort of genocide in light of this, lol

It is estimated that up to 50% of the Old Prussians died during the crusade - that is not genocide in your opinion? Genocide is not only when you kill 100%. Old Prussian survivors - except few privileged traitors (those who defected to the Crusaders early on) - were treated almost like slaves by the Teutonic Knights for centuries after the end of the crusade.

Moreover, East Euro DNA in East Prussia, is not just from original Prussians. It is also from massive Polish and Lithuanian immigrations in the 1400s-1500s.

[SharpFork]

It is estimated that up to 50% of the Old Prussians died during the crusade - that is not genocide in your opinion? Genocide is not only when you kill 100%. Old Prussian survivors - except a few privileged traitors (those who defected to the Christians early on) - were treated almost like slaves by the Teutonic Knights for centuries after the end of the crusade.

Moreover, East Euro DNA in East Prussia, is not just from original Prussians. It is also from massive Polish and Lithuanian immigrations in the 1400s-1500s.

No it's not a genocide.
Population decline, class systems, discrimination etc. were extremely common and nothing special, not worth using anachronistic terminology and all-encompassing definitions.

[Peterski]

The last speaker of Baltic Prussian language died in the 1700s. I made such simulation before (based on many sources):

Year - total population / uniparental descendants of Old Prussians (% of total) / speakers of Old Prussian (% of total)

1218 - 170,000 / 170,000 (100%) / 170,000 (100%)
1283 - 116,000 / 110,000 (95%) / 110,000 (95%)
1310 - 150,000 / 126,000 (84%) / 120,000 (80%)
1405 - 270,000 / 151,000 (56%) / 123,000 (46%)
1466 - 163,000 / 90,000 (55%) / 65,000 (40%)
1506 - 207,000 / 100,000 (48%) / 67,000 (32%)
1626 - 450,000 / 153,000 (34%) / 56,000 (12%)
1656 - 501,000 / 169,000 (34%) / 50,000 (10%)
1660 - 376,000 / 134,000 (36%) / 38,000 (10%)
1685 - 492,000 / 173,000 (35%) / 33,000 (7%)
1708 - 677,000 / 219,000 (32%) / 25,000 (4%)
1711 - 441,000 / 161,000 (37%) / 15,000 (3%)
1740 - 601,000 / 195,000 (32%) / 0.1,000 (0%)
1759 - 686,000 / 222,000 (32%) / extinct
1816 - 1006,000 / 324,000 (32%) / extinct

^^^
As you can see from that, already in year 1405, Old Prussians were just half of the population of their original territory.

By early 19th century, I estimated that no more than 1/3 of the total gene pool of East Prussia was from Old Prussians.

And the language was completely extinct by mid-1700s (last remnants of its speakers lived in the Sambia Peninsula).

=====

BTW, here is a good map showing German colonization of the area:

http://maeckelburg.de/feedback.htm

[Peterski]

No it's not a genocide.
Population decline, class systems, discrimination etc. were extremely common and nothing special, not worth using anachronistic terminology and all-encompassing definitions.

What are you talking about? Mongol massacres (such as the slaughters of Baghdad, Merv, Nishapur) are considered genocides, and so were massacres by German crusaders, it is no difference.

What about this written by Pope Clement V in year 1310, when Teutonic Order genocided 10,000 Christian Poles (the Pope did not care as long as they were genociding Pagans, but Christians?):

"Novissime vero ad pervenit auditum, quod dicti praeceptores et fratres hospitalis eiusdem dilecti filii nobilis viri Wladislai Cracovie et Sandomirie ducis terram hostiliter subintrantes in civitate Gdansco ultra decem milia hominum gladio peremerunt infantibus vagientibus in cunis mortis exitum inferentes, quibus etiam hostis fidei pepercisset."

English:

"It has recently come to our attention that the said preceptors and brothers of the same hospital, stealing into the land of our dear son, the nobleman Duke Władysław of Kraków and Sandomierz, in a hostile manner, killed more than 10,000 people in the city of Gdansk by the sword, inflicting death upon infants crying in their cradles, whom even the enemies of the faith would have spared."

Lites I (3), 69 (Papal bull):

"Gravem dilecti nobilis viri Wladislai ducis Polonie querelam accepimus, continentem, quod magister et fratres domus s. Marie Theutonicorum non attendentes, quod quondam Conradus dux Polonie avus eiusdem ducis eosdem magistrum et fratres, quos veros credebat katholice fidei defensores, ad partes illas pro defensione ipsius fidei primitus advocavit et nonnula inmobilia et mobilia bona liberaliter concessit eisdem, alias eos dictus Conradus et successors sui benigne ac favorabiliter prosequendo; sed ipsi dicto duci se reddentes ingratos et ad bona ipsius rapacitatis manus extendentes, illicite ducem ipsum terra sua Pomoranie Wladislauiensis dyocesis, que de regno Polonie fore dinoscitur temeritate propria spoliantes, illam cum hominibus, vasallis, castris, villis, possessionibus et bonis existentibus in eadem contra iusticiam occuparunt et detinuerunt iam per octo annos et amplius sicut adhuc detinent violenter, fructus ac redditus et proventus provenientes ex illa percipientes indebite et iniuste, illam sibi reddere contradicunt in ipsius ducis grave dispendium et regni predicti diminucionem enormem et scandalum manifestum."

English:

"We accepted the serious complaint of our dear son, the nobleman Duke Władysław of Poland, the master and brothers of the Teutonic Order not being present, maintaining that the late Duke Konrad of Poland, grandfather of the same duke, first called the master and brothers, whom he believed true defenders of the Catholic faith, and he freely conceded to them some movable and immovable goods, and the said Konrad and his successors with benign favour followed these up with others. But, showing no gratitude to the said duke and extending the hands of rapacity towards his goods, they boldly and illicitily robbed that duke of his own land of Pomerania, of the diocese of Włocławek, which it is known should belong to the kingdom of Poland, along with the men, vassals, castles, villages, possessions, and goods in it, now occupying and detaining it against justice for eight years and more still violently detaining its fruits and revenues and produce wtihout right and unjustly, they refuse to return it to him at great cost to the duke himself and immense damage to the aforesaid kingdom and in manifest scandal."

From "Annales seu cronici incliti regni Poloniae", written in the 1400s (English translation):

"THE GRAND MASTER OF THE TEUTONIC ORDER, AFTER CAPTURING THE CASTLE OF GDANSK, FORCES THE CITY TO SURRENDER AND SLAUGHTERS ALL THE POLES, SPARING NEITHER GENDER NOR AGE.

(...) The city was resisting enemy siege for over a dozen days; but then it fell due to betrayal by some of its inhabitants - those of German extraction - who started negotiationg with the Teutonic Knights about surrendering. At night, the gate was opened by traitors and the enemy was let in. The city fell. Soon all of Pomerelian knights, lords and nobility, and - what was an even worse crime - all the common people, were slaughtered. No Pole was spared, no gender was spared, no class was spared and no age was spared - the Teutonic Knights murdered without mercy all the adolescents, children and infants. (...) Few examples of similar mass slaughter exist in Poland's history, rarely has so much blood been spilled whenever some fortified place was sacked. There was no kind of rape and no kind of cruelty, that the Teutonic Knights have not committed in Gdansk to exterminate the Poles. (...)"

=====

There were also Polish-Teutonic court trails over those issues, and the Popes sided with Poland, but the Teutons did not care to follow Papal orders:

Spoiler!

Statements at the Warsaw Trial - made by 126 witnesses from all levels of Polish society at a hearing convened at Pope Benedict XII's request and held in Warsaw from February 4 to September 15, 1339. During the session, Polish citizens were asked to testify about the devastation done to Poland by the Teutonic Knights. The judges concluded that eastern Pomerania, Chelmno and Michalow lands should all be returned to Poland and that the Teutonic Knights should make a large indemnity payment.

Fragments from "Lites ac res gestae inter Polonos ordinemque Cruciferorum, 1339":

Lites I (2), 95:

"[King Casimir III] intendit, quod ducatus et terra Pomoranie cum omnibus territoriis et districtibus sitis et locatis infra ipsum, scilicet Gdansk, Swecze, Slupsk, Tharszow, Stalgart, Meva necnon aliis opidis, castris et villis infra ducatum Pomoranie constitutis, sunt site infra regnum predictum Polonie et ad ipsum regnum pertinent ab antiquo, et quod hoc est notorium (...) intendit, quod terra Culmensis cum omni districtu et territorio suo et cum civitate Culmensi, Thorun, necnon omnibus opidis, castris, villis sitis et locatis infra dictum territorium Culmense a flumine Visla usque ad flumen Ossa vulgariter nuncupatum, pertinet ab antiquo ad regnum Polonie et est sita infra metas eiusdem regni, et quod principes Polonie, qui pro tempore fuerunt, ipsam possederunt nomine regni euisdem, et quod de hoc est publica vox et fama."

English:

"[King Casimir III] intends to prove that the duchy and land of Pomerania with all the territories and districts situated and located within it, namely Gdansk, Świecie, Słupsk, Tczew, Starogard, and Gniew, and also the other towns, castles and villages located within the duchy of Pomerania, is situated within the aforesaid Kingdom of Poland and has belonged to the same kingdom since antiquity, and that this is notorious (...) he intends to prove that the land of Chełmno with each district and territory and with the city of Chełmno, Toruń, and also all the towns, castles, and villages located and situated under the said territory of Chełmno from the Vistula River to the river commonly named Osa belongs from antiquity to the Kingdom of Poland and is located within the borders of the same kingdom and that the princes of Poland at that time possessed the same in the name of the same king and that concerning this there is public knowledge."

Lites I (2), 163:

"Dixit eciam, quod una et eadem lingua est in Pomorania et Polonia, quia omnes homines communiter habitantes in ea locuntur polonicum (...) terra et ducatus Pomoranie est de regno Polonie et infra regnum, et est vox et fama publica de predictis tam inter indigenas quam inter Alamannos et alios alienigenas habitantes intra regnum Polonie et extra."

English:

"There is one and the same language in Poland and Pomerania because all the people living in [Pomerania] commonly speak Polish (...) the land or duchy of Pomerania is of the Kingdom of Poland and within the kingdom, and there is common knowledge about the aforesaid among both the indigenous people and the Germans and other foreigners living within the Kingdom of Poland and beyond."

Lites I (2), 283:

"[Duke Casimir of Kuyavia testified that the Teutonic Knights] interfecerunt ibi omnes Polonos, quotquot poterunt invenire... Theutonici stantes infra dictam civitatem Gdansk, defraudaverunt Polonos qui erant infraeam."

English:

"[Duke Casimir of Kuyavia testified that the Teutonic Knights] killed all the Poles they could find there [in Gdańsk], [and that] the Germans staying within the said city of Gdansk defrauded the Poles who lived there."

Lites I (2), 291:

"In dicta terra Pomoranie sunt et fuerunt semper Poloni" (English: "there are and always have been Poles in the land of Pomerania").

Lites I (2), 338:

"Dux Mistiwoyus ui lingua et moribus ac legibus se tenebat tamquam Polonus et semper de regno Polonie et infra ipsum regnum."

English:

"Duke Msciwoj in language, customs and laws thought of himself as a Pole and of the Kingdom of Poland and within the same kingdom."

Lites I (2), 367:

"[Archbishop of Gniezno testified that] semper ab antiquo, de quo memoria hominum in contrarium non existit, dicta terra Pomoranie pertinet et pertinuit ad regnum Polonie et est infra ipsum regnum et per principes Polonie possessa."

English:

"[Archbishop of Gniezno testified that] always from antiquity, about which memory of men to the contrary does not exist, the said land of Pomerania belongs and has belonged to the Kingdom of Poland, and it is within that kingdom and possessed by princes of Poland."