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Thread: Domagoj Nikolic - Aleksandar Makedonski

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    Veteran Member PAGANE's Avatar
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    Excerpts from the transcript confirming the "original" newly created Macedonian language have been preserved. The meeting was attended by Risto Prodanov, Risto Zografski, Dr. Gjorche Shoptrayan, Dare Djambaz, Vasil Iliev, Dr. Mihail Petrushevski, Krume Toshev, Mirko Pavlov, Gjorge Kiselinov, Blajo Koneski, Dr. Milka Balvanlieva - then teachers, Venko - poet, Epaminondas Popandonov (from ASNOM). The names are written according to the protocol from 27.XI. 1944
    Here are a few excerpts from the popular Bulgarian language with some Western features of the participants in the conference, sincerely acknowledging that so far there has been no literary Macedonian language, let alone a history of the language; that more care must be taken to avoid making political mistakes with regard to Serbia and the federation; that the Revivalists actually wrote in the then Bulgarian literary language; that it is necessary to think of a common Yugoslav language (?!); that the adverb - the basis of the literary language, has yet to be understood by presenting essays, etc.
    On August 2, 1944, the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the People's Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM) was established in the Prohor Pcinski Monastery, which proclaimed Vardar Macedonia an integral federal unit of Yugoslavia and decided to establish a "Macedonian literary language." From November 27 to December 3, 1944, a conference of the philological commission for the creation of the "Macedonian alphabet" and the "Macedonian literary language" met in Skopje.

    Е. Попандонов: „Ние требе денеска да ги положиме основите на нашата писменост и на нашата книжевност, установаеjки македонска азбука и македонски литературен jазик…разбира се да вклучиме и интересите на целата заедница во коjа се наоѓаме, интересите на федеративна и демократска Jугославиjа. Jас од това место сакам да ве поканам да викнеме: „Да е жив Тито“(викане Да е жив). „Да е жива Комунистическата партиа…(Да е жива!) (Epaminondas Popandonov, Stenographic Notes, pp. 1-2)
    "But thanks to the Communist Party, which in today's gigantic struggle was the first to raise the flag for the struggle against the occupiers and for the freedom of all enslaved peoples, as well as for the freedom of the Macedonian people, thanks to the troops of our far-sighted Marshal Tito and especially our young Macedonian army, we have our own country today… Of course, in order for a nation to be cultural, it needs cultural development, and this cannot happen without writing, without the alphabet. In order to keep a nation in today's struggle of cultural nations, it must establish itself as a nation in such a way that those features that characterize it as a nation come to the surface… Therefore, we must today lay the foundations of our writing and literature by establishing the Macedonian alphabet and the Macedonian literary language. To accomplish this task, we must therefore be guided by the interests of our Macedonian people and, of course, by including the interests of the whole community ("community") in which we find ourselves, the interests of a federal and democratic Yugoslavia. From this place I want to invite you to shout: "Long live the leader of a democratic and federal Yugoslavia, Marshal Tito" (shouts "Long live!"). Long live the Communist Party, which gave us the opportunity to gather here today… (shouts "Long live!") " (Epaminondas Popandonov, Stenographic Notes, pp. 1-2)

    Р. Зографски: „Според мене, по-арно да направиме некоjа граматичка грешка, отколку да направиме некоjа политичка грешка.“ (стр. 29)
    R. Zografski: "In my opinion, it is better to make a grammatical mistake than to make a political mistake." (P. 29)

    Бл. Конески: „Ако jа земеме српската кирилица, пак нашиот jазик ке си остане македонски. Па ништо пак нема да се допринесе ако сакаме и со азбуката да подцъртаме разликата меѓу нас и сърбите.“ (стр. 29 – 30)
    "There is a lot of interest in this work of ours, there are many other people who are interested in this issue. And I think that there are many among them who will not agree with the current opinions. Inventing new letters is not a simple and easy task, so we should not rush into it before we have thought it through. In order to invent new letters, we must make solid and solid arguments that the old letters do not work. And the old has been tested in practice… If we take the Serbian Cyrillic, our language will still remain Macedonian. We will not contribute anything if we want to maintain the difference between us and the Serbs with the alphabet. "(Blaze Konevski, pp. 29-30)

    В. Илиев: „Ништо не ни пречи, никакви чувства не ни пречат од братската сърпска азбука да земеме љ и њ.“ (стр. 36)

    Г. Киселинов: „Литературниот jазик го прават литераторите и журналистите, а филолозите имат само да установат формите на jазикот. Ама денеска ако сакаме да земеме едно наречjе од нашиот jазик како литературен jазик, немаме време да чекаме да се прави тоj jазик. Ние сме исправени пред вопросот да имаме литературен jазик, а немаме време и не можеме да чекаме тоj jазик да го направат поети, книжевници и журналисти.“ (стр. 3)
    "We do not have time to wait for this language to be made. We are faced with the question of having a literary language, but we do not have the time and we cannot wait for this language to be made by poets, writers and journalists. In France, the Parisian dialect was taken as the literary language; in Russia - Moscow, in Serbia - Herzegovina. Literary language gradually developed from these dialects. But, as I said, we do not have time to wait for any of our dialects to develop into a literary language.
    (George Kiselinov, p. 3)

    Круме Тошески: „Наjубаво е биде, ако можеме да наjдеме нешто средно, може не много научно, ама со мера и практично.“ (стр. 35).
    Krume Tosheski: "It will be best if we can find something average, maybe not very scientific, but in moderation and practical." (P. 35)

    Круме Тошески„Jас страхувам да не направиме некоjа грешка, та да ни се смеjат лугето!“(Круме Тошески, с. 17)
    "I'm afraid we'll make a mistake so that the lye will laugh at us!"
    (Krume Tosheski, p. 17)

    Obviously, the members of the commission are aware that their writings will provoke laughter among the scientific community.


    Бл. Конески: „Се рече централното наречjе да се земе како основа за македонскиот литературен jазик. Jас сметам дека това наречjе треба да се обjасни, ако се не определи географски каде се говори това наречjе. Jас сметам оти не може да се определи нито по (jусот), нито по Ъ (ер голем). Затова предлагам еден реферат да се изнесе за главните особености на това наречjе. Без това не можеме да го определиме.“ (стр. 22-23).
    Bl. Koneski: "It was said that the central dialect should be taken as a basis for the Macedonian literary language. I think that this dialect should be explained, if it is not determined geographically where this dialect is spoken. I don't think it can be determined either by ™ (jusot) or by Ъ (er large). Therefore, I propose to give an essay on the main features of this dialect. Without this we cannot determine it. ”(Pp. 22-23).

    Milka Balvanlieva "Time itself forces us to take the letters from the Serbo-Croatian Cyrillic alphabet, because in newer science we avoid making diphthongs." With the Serbo-Croatian Cyrillic alphabet, we will have a Yugoslav alphabet. (Milka Balvanlieva, p. 24)

    "In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, literary work was transferred to the monasteries, especially in the Athos forest, where Father Paisius, the first Macedonian semi-medieval and semi-modern historian, came from."
    (George Kiselinov, pp. 4-6)
    I just remind you that this father Paisii, "the first Macedonian semi-medieval and semi-modern historian." Wrote Slavo-Bulgarian History Paisii himself says: "Oh, unwise and fool! Why are you ashamed to call yourself a Bulgarian and do not read or speak your language? "
    In which the First Preface
    In this part, attention is paid to the "wise" reader. History is defined as a source of knowledge and hope. Second preface
    "To those who wish to read and hear what is written in this story" is the second part, which is an independent creation of Paisius. In it he addresses the entire Bulgarian family, criticizing foreign worshipers and praising patriots. He compares Bulgarians and Greeks and emphasizes the virtues of our simple sincere people, making an analogy with the biblical apostles. The real part
    It is a compilation of works by various historians such as "The Slavic Kingdom" by Mavro Orbini, "Acts of Church and Civil" by Caesar Baroni and others. He also uses Bulgarian biographies and diplomas of Bulgarian kings. This part consists of 7 chapters, combining a story about the Bulgarian and Serbian kings, the saints and the Slavic first teachers. The main advantage is not in the factual precision, but in the selection, as it is made so as to emphasize the army and the spiritual sublimity of the Bulgarian people.


    Eight decades later, the heirs of the political writers in the language now unconditionally believe that the Macedonian language comes from time immemorial and has no Bulgarian roots.
    The first Macedonian primer published in Greece in the 1940s. Illustration from the Macedonian press. Strangely written in pure Bulgarian


    ANSOM decision for the creation of the Macedonian language

    The new "language" is ultimately no different from the old one that has become its basis. This conclusion is in harmony with the conclusion of the world-famous Balkanist G. Weigand, who wrote a special chapter on the subject and titled it precisely "The Macedonian Bulgarian Language" in his famous work on Macedonia:
    "Whichever area of ​​the language we look at, it is quite clear that we are dealing with Bulgarian, not Serbian. All attempts by Serbian chauvinists to present the Macedonian language as a Serbian dialect or as a mixed language of indeterminate character are fruitless. "


    The Bulgarian language, due to the impossibility of Bulgaria to achieve its national unification in the twentieth century and due to the imposed emigration of the population in the past after various wars, reported a record number of attempts for written-regional codifications - six. "Pluricentric language" is a language with more than one written norm. Three of them are in Greece: the "alphabetical" experience of 1925, the "Aegean-Macedonian" experience of 1953, and the "Pomak" experience of 1995-1996. ) Banat. A codification in the 1930s took place in Soviet Ukraine, and after the end of World War II in the Republic of Macedonia (formerly Tito's Yugoslavia). Of these six codifications, three (two in Greece - "Abecedarian" and "Pomak" and one in Banat) were made on the basis of dialects and three (in the Aegean part of Greece; in the Republic of Macedonia and in Ukraine) - on the basis of literary Bulgarian language.

    ...Even if a man lives well, he dies and another one comes into existence. Let the one who comes later upon seeing this inscription remember the one who had made it. And the name is Omurtag, Kanasubigi.

  2. #82
    Senior Member -Invictus-'s Avatar
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    The name Paeonia would have been more accurate for your country rather than Macedonia, but guess the region's name and the juicy Alexander conquest were too desirable and almost required in order for your young nation and ethnicity to exist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_(kingdom)
    "Some modern scholars consider the Paeonians to have been of either Thracian,[15] or of mixed Thraco-Illyrian origins.[16] Some of the names of the Paeonians are also definitely Hellenic (Lycceius, Ariston, Audoleon), although relatively little is known about them.[17] Linguistically, the very small number of surviving words in the Paeonian language have been variously connected to its neighboring languages – Illyrian and Thracian (and every possible Thraco-Illyrian mix in between).[18]"

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    Banned Anaximander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Invictus- View Post
    The Glagolitic was based on the language of Slavs who lived in Thessaloniki. It was used in both in Bulgaria and the West Balkans. A few years later the Cyrillic script was created by Saint Naum(one of Cyril and Methodius disciples) on the basis of the Glagolitic in the Preslav Literary School. Then it became official in Bulgaria, Serbia, Kievan Rus and so on, while the Glagolitic peaked in Croatia until 14th century before the Ottoman conquest. In Ottoman years the script slowly lost it's popularity and in 19th century it became used only in religious practices and was completely replaced by the Latin script( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script#Spread )

    It doesn't mean that the Slavs living in Thessaloniki spoke a mix of Bulgarian and Greek. They were just Slavs who spoke Old Slavic in the borders of the Byzantine empire at that time. The language that is most similar to Old Slavic is Bulgarian and Macedonia was part of medieval Bulgaria for a long time, hence why that dialect of the Macedonian Slavs(not the Bulgaro-Serbian gibberish they speak today) was defined as eastern Bulgarian. At the time of Cyril and Methodius it was just Old Slavic - the language that unites all Slavic languages today and makes us understand each other to some extent.
    Yes, i know all these, i know the basics of balkan history, other thing i am saying......

    Quote Originally Posted by PAGANE View Post
    [QUOTE = Anaximander; 6725680] И така, подкрепяте идеята, че първата азбука, създадена от кирилица (глаголица), се основава на българския диалект, докато втората, появяваща се в Преслав от св. Наум, е била същата с оригинала на Кирил? Ако се оправя? Ако го направя, тогава Темата за Солун в стражарския светец Кирил създаде своята азбука е със смесено население българи и гърци, или българите от периода говорят смесен език между славянски и гръцки. Не знам дали мисълта ми се счита за правилна, но това, което разбирам, че твърдя, че Климент е проявил уважение към светеца Кирил и не е променил азбуката ???? [/ QUOTE]

    No.

    Cyril and Methodius create the Glagolitic alphabet of the Thessaloniki Slavic dialect, which belongs to the Eastern Bulgarian Rupian dialects
    And this alphabet, which today is known as the Cyrillic alphabet, was created in the Preslav literary school in the late ninth century or early tenth century. It contains 24 letters of the unique Greek alphabet and 14 characters close to the Glagolitic alphabet, which correspond to purely Bulgarian sounds ( б, ж, ц, ч, ш, щ, ъ, ь, ѣ, ю, ѧ, ѫ). The following excerpt is found in "A Short Life of Kliment Ohridski":
    "He invented other forms of letters for greater clarity than those invented by the wise Cyril. Whether this statement actually says that Kliment Ohridski developed a simpler and more convenient Glagolitic font or developed the alphabet that we now call the Cyrillic alphabet is a fact on which scholars have no opinion.


    No medieval source has found its own name of the Old Bulgarian alphabet based on the Greek uncial alphabet.
    The name "Cyrillic" was registered in 1563 in the Croatian translation of the New Testament, published by Croatian Protestants in Tbingen.
    Ok, now i got what u mean, they just transformed the Glagolitic alfabet to Cyrilic in Preslav, while they replaced some letter of the original with Greek ones, for the bureaucracy between 1st Bulgarian Empire and the Byzantine Empire, but Klement of Ohrid would have no reason to transform Glagolithic alphabet. So ur claim is that Cyril and Methodi spoke the original Bulgarian language, and formed their language on it, and not on the macedonski language.=, which has elements from serbian??

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    Veteran Member Hahns's Avatar
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    The modern Macedonian comed from the west Bulgarian dialect. As years passed evolved in a unique language.

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    [QUOTE = Anaximander; 6726078] Да, знам всичко това, знам основите на историята на балкана, друго нещо, което казвам ......



    Добре, сега разбрах какво искаш да кажеш, те просто преобразиха глаголическия алфабет в кирилица в Преслав, докато заменят някои букви от оригинала с гръцки, за бюрокрацията между Първа българска империя и Византийската империя, но Климент Охридски няма да има причина да преобразува глаголица. Така че ур твърди, че Кирил и Методий са говорили оригиналния български език и са формирали езика си на него, а не на македонски език. =, Който има елементи от сръбски ?? [/ ЦИТО]

    In the 9th century there is no Macedonia and no Macedonian language
    Why the Glagolitic font was replaced by the so-called Cyrillic, in the medieval Bulgarian literary language, for one simple reason - it was more complex, time-consuming, took more time to work with. Glagolitic, it was written more slowly. It took several hand movements to connect its individual elements, and thus the manuscripts were much more difficult to transcribe, so there would be fewer new books and slower creation of documents coming out of the ruler's office. And during this period it was important to rewrite as many manuscripts as possible in order to start their cultural tradition. The concept of the Cyrillic alphabet is traditionally attributed to Tsar Simeon I. It was assumed that his ambition to be "Vasilevs of Bulgarians and Romans" prompted him to introduce an alphabet that was closer to the Greek alphabet. The fact is, however, that more and more Byzantine books, already transcribed once in Glagolitic, in his time began to be transcribed into Cyrillic. writing Cyrillic replaces Glagolitic.
    ...Even if a man lives well, he dies and another one comes into existence. Let the one who comes later upon seeing this inscription remember the one who had made it. And the name is Omurtag, Kanasubigi.

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    Banned Anaximander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hahns View Post
    The modern Macedonian comed from the west Bulgarian dialect. As years passed evolved in a unique language.
    Then u are western Bulgarians.... if ur language originates from bulgarian. And ur looks from what ive observed are Bulgarian lookalike.
    So u confess u are Bulgarians??

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    Veteran Member Hahns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Then u are western Bulgarians.... if ur language originates from bulgarian. And ur looks from what ive observed are Bulgarian lookalike.
    So u confess u are Bulgarians??
    We are a distinguished ethnicity like Austrians and Germans, Americans and British. We have culturally similarities with Bulgarians but we are different nations.

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    Veteran Member PAGANE's Avatar
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    Guys, this is not about whether you are Bulgarian or not, and no one wants people there to say they are Bulgarians. Today, people of different ethnicities live in northern Macedonia. And those who took Bulgarian passports, regardless of the reason, had to prove the Bulgarian origin of their ancestors. About 100,000, according to official data from the Bulgarian Foreign Ministry, and about 20,000 applications are pending.
    Here the problem of the language is that in the 9th century, when the Old Bulgarian literary language was formed as a state language, it formed not only a common linguistic space on the territory of medieval Bulgaria, but also the Old Bulgarian culture, traditions, literature, arts and tradition has been passed down through the centuries despite all the historical vicissitudes.
    In the 9th century there was no state of Macedonia and no Macedonian people, because this territory was part of medieval Bulgaria. And then in the conditions of the Ottoman Empire Bulgarians remained, Serbs remained Serbs, Greeks remained Greeks and this was the case until 1944, when this land and the people there were artificially separated from Bulgaria and included in Yugoslavia with all the ensuing consequences - the creation of a new language, a new alphabet and a new people.

    ...Even if a man lives well, he dies and another one comes into existence. Let the one who comes later upon seeing this inscription remember the one who had made it. And the name is Omurtag, Kanasubigi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PAGANE View Post
    Guys, this is not about whether you are Bulgarian or not, and no one wants people there to say they are Bulgarians. Today, people of different ethnicities live in northern Macedonia. And those who took Bulgarian passports, regardless of the reason, had to prove the Bulgarian origin of their ancestors. About 100,000, according to official data from the Bulgarian Foreign Ministry, and about 20,000 applications are pending.
    Here the problem of the language is that in the 9th century, when the Old Bulgarian literary language was formed as a state language, it formed not only a common linguistic space on the territory of medieval Bulgaria, but also the Old Bulgarian culture, traditions, literature, arts and tradition has been passed down through the centuries despite all the historical vicissitudes.
    In the 9th century there was no state of Macedonia and no Macedonian people, because this territory was part of medieval Bulgaria. And then in the conditions of the Ottoman Empire Bulgarians remained, Serbs remained Serbs, Greeks remained Greeks and this was the case until 1944, when this land and the people there were artificially separated from Bulgaria and included in Yugoslavia with all the ensuing consequences - the creation of a new language, a new alphabet and a new people.
    I agree that our issue, is not to force a people into something, but let them explore all the availiable historical records, from all sides, and by all sides i mean Byzantine historians and archives, Bylgarian archives, western archives, and let them find their truth. This process has been done by a Macedonci youtuber named Bobi's Perspective, he made his resourche and found out his ancestors, national heroes and so on, self identified and were Bulgarians from the region of Macedonia.
    One is a liar to hismelv and a disgrace to his ancestors to distort their nature., by saying he is something else than his ancestrors where.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hahns View Post
    We are a distinguished ethnicity like Austrians and Germans, Americans and British. We have culturally similarities with Bulgarians but we are different nations.
    Germans and Austrians are the same ethnicity, who were divided and kept from unifying for political reasons. An Austrian speaks german and doesnt claim otherwise. Are kosovars not albanian? Americans are a melting pot of many many peoples whove migrated there. Most of their genes arent even from the UK, but they still say they speak english and so do australians, new zealenders etc etc.

    Macedonians were right in picking pelagonian dialect as their standard, however a cham albanian and a Sandzakli have more problems understanding each other than yall, but we still consider ourselves albanian. In the end its a matter of different criteria and so on. Macedonian may or may not have been synonymous with bulgarian 150 years ago, but today it is recognized as a separate language. And i doubt any Macedonian would give this up.
    "If if if if if if if if if if if if if we if we fall for you know a bunch of Okie Doke just because eh eh eh eh eh eh eh sounds funny" - Barack Osama (?)

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