Proto-Bulgar inscriptions vs Orkhon inscriptions

[-Invictus-]

The Turkic runes in Murfatlar were based probably on the Kharosthi script.

Searched for that Kharosthi script and the page also mentioned the Brahmi script. Found more resemblance between the Brahmi script and the Bulgar runes on the rosette of Pliska, compared to Kharosthi.



Brahmi unicode symbols - ������������

Kharosthi unicode - ������

Orkhon unicode - ������

For the sake of objectivity I kept out symbols with different orientation like the Brahmi �� and the Orkhon ��

I'm not saying that Bulgars were North Indians. I just compare symbols and yes I know that the Orkhon was influenced by these scripts, but you can see that there are symbols from the rosette that are present in Brahmi, but not in Orkhon. Here are the links I used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmi...d_digitization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharosthi#Unicode
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Turkic_script#Unicode

Edit - Looks like I can't use unicode symbols in the forum. Luckily could go backwards when I was creating the comment and they were visible.

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Bender1999; 6721902] Някои символи приличат на символи oghuz, особено клана kayi. [/ QUOTE]

The opposite is true! Kai runes resemble Proto-Bulgarian. Proto-Bulgarian runes of the 7th-9th century, and kai appeared on the political scene only in the 13th century.

[Bender1999]

Double

[Bender1999]

[QUOTE = Bender1999; 6721902] Някои символи приличат на символи oghuz, особено клана kayi. [/ QUOTE]

The opposite is true! Kai runes resemble Proto-Bulgarian. Proto-Bulgarian runes of the 7th-9th century, and kai appeared on the political scene only in the 13th century.

I cant say why both symbols resemble to each other. But the kayi clan is definitely older than many other oghuz tribes and some sources and historians claim its the oldest oghuz tribe. The last sentence isnt really true. The interesting point is how its possible that a oghur and oghuz tribe with geographical distance share the same symbol.
Btw do someone have that script in original Bulgar language?

[-Invictus-]

The interesting point is how its possible that a oghur and oghuz tribe with geographical distance share the same symbol.

Just like the Bulgar runes on the rosette of Pliska in Bulgaria share similarities with the Brahmi script from Northern India, that are not present in the Orkhon script. That doesn't make the Bulgars North Indian, just like the Kayi tribe using the IYI symbol doesn't make the Bulgars Turkic(although there is certainly other evidence that points toward Turkic roots).

[Bender1999]

Just like the Bulgar runes on the rosette of Pliska in Bulgaria share similarities with the Brahmi script from Northern India, that are not present in the Orkhon script. That doesn't make the Bulgars North Indian, just like the Kayi tribe using the IYI symbol doesn't make the Bulgars Turkic(although there is certainly other evidence that points toward Turkic roots).

About the brahmi script i dont have knowledge about it. But the relation between Bulgars and other turkics like oghuz(kayi) should be examined, since Bulgars were definitely were (at least predominately or upper class/lingua franca)Turkic. You are right, just because kayi has the same symbol, that isnt a sufficient proof for turkic roots of bulgars, there are many other unbeatable proofs for this theory.

[-Invictus-]

About the brahmi script i dont have knowledge about it. But the relation between Bulgars and other turkics like oghuz(kayi) should be examined, since Bulgars were definitely were (at least predominately or upper class/lingua franca)Turkic. You are right, just because kayi has the same symbol, that isnt a sufficient proof for turkic roots of bulgars, there are many other unbeatable proofs for this theory.

I don't have knowledge either. I just have 2 eyes that compare the symbols. If you want to prove that this similarity doesn't exist, I invite you to look at the first comment of this page and say your opinion about it, instead of jumping over it to talk about the Kayi tribe. There are also unbeatable proofs of the Iranian theory like the Madara horseman :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madara_Rider



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naqsh-e_Rostam

[-Invictus-]

double post

[Bender1999]

Riding a horse is a gladly used due the history, honestly i dont see any connection to (southern)iranics and bulgars, but indeed i believe they could have influences of steppe iranians.

[PAGANE]

PROTO-BULGARIAN INSCRIPTIONS IN GREEK LETTERS
Remarks on the Proto-Bulgarian Inscription from Preslav
The inscriptions will be analysed one by one in order to clarify their linguistic nature. The largest inscription - that from Preslav, enumerates the armaments at the disposal of two high Bulgarian dignitaries - one of the rank of ICHIRGU BOILA and another one of rank of TORTUNA PILE ZHOPAN

The inscription reads:

ZITKOI ITZIRGU BOILA
HOUMS-HI KJUPE 455
TOULS-HI 540
ESTROGIN KJUPE 427
TOULS-HI 854
TURTUNA PILE ZHUPAN
ESTRJUGIN KJUPE 20
TOULS-HI 40
ALHASI KJUPE 1
HLOUBRIN 1



It is interpreted as a list of armaments because of the frequent repetition of the word KJUPE (which means 'armament, armour' in many eastern languages), and also from the fact that against every occurence of the word KJUPE there are numbers, expressed in letters. The numbers certainly indicate the number of the arms, which each of the dignitaries must have possessed. This special feature was already detected by the first investigators of the inscription - J.Denis and J. Venedikov, and it was an important contribution towards its deciphering. Researchers have until now tried to explain the inscriptions with the help of the Turkic languages alone, which, however, do not have words as "estrogin" and "chlobrin" and designations as "humski kjupe" and "alhasi kjupe". Thus the inscription could be only half translated. Below is given a systematized list of the terms in the inscription, and their meaning in certain eastern languages:
ZITKOI ITZIRGU BOILA. Since in Greek the sound "ch" is missing, a likely ecplanation of the first word ZITKOI is provided by the eastern Iranian term CHITKA - "fortification, ditch", which is still used in the Tajik language in the form of CHUDGOH - a fortified military camp. In Caucasus (among the Chechens and Lesgins) from this root are formed the words CHUCH-VAR - a ditch fortified with stones, and CHUTKIA - a cover. The ending -I is likewise well-known in the eastern Iranian languages.
ALHASI KJUPE. We already know the second part of expression, but now we want to determine what the word "alhasi" means. From the Preslav inscription it can be seen that the armament "alhasi kjupe" was not a normal armament, available in great quantities - there was only one of it, compared with 400 and more copies of the other types of armament. Therefore the translation of "alhasi kjupe" as a "mail armour", done by the previous researchers of the inscription, is highly improbable. Mail armour was not any rarity, in the opposite - it was the most common type of armour for the areas the Proto-Bulgarians came from. The combination ALHASI KJUPE denotes something else. Clues about its meaning come from the languages of those peoples who once lived in the neighbourhood of Kubrat Bulgaria (Northern Caucasus and Southern Russia). In some of these languages (for example in Georgian) the word ALHASI means a siege machine. Therefore it can be assumed that in the Proto-Bulgarian language ALHASI KJUPE denoted not a common type of armour, but large defences with observation towers. This explains also why in contrast to the remaining types of arms - "chumshi kjupe", "estrogin kjupe", the armament "alchasi kjupe" was specified in only one copy in Preslav.
ESTROGIN KJUPE. This expression from Preslav remained likewise to date untranslated. Comparison of the word "estrogin" with the Hungarian "estragon", a type of shed, could not solve the problem. However, in a number of small Pamirian languages the word "estrika" means knitting, from which is derived the adjective "estrigin" (knitted). Terms of this type are observed in the Pamirs since the first century AD. Therefore it is highly probable that the Proto-Bulgarian "ESTROGIN KJUPE" means "mail armour", i.e. the typical eastern type of armour. From the Preslav inscription is seen that the defenders of Preslav had in total 427 pieces of arms of the type "estrogin kjupe". Such a great quantity can be accepted for mail armour.
HOUMS-HI KJUPE. This somewhat difficult expression was translated as a "soft armour" up to now. The reason for this was the weak similarity between HOUMS-HI and the Turkic JUMSHAK. However it would be difficult to find peoples calling their armour 'soft'. If one considers the fact that because of the missing sound "sh" in the Greek language the combination "s-h" was used instead, it can be assumed that the word HOUMS-HI KJUPE sounded as HUMSHI KJUPE in Proto-Bulgarian, which facilitates significantly the investigations. In the areas neighbouring the former Kubrat Bulgaria in Caucasus one finds even nowadays the word HUNCHI (moulded, cast in metal), which resembles the Proto-Bulgarian term HUMSHI. Elaborating further, under the Caucasian word HUMCHI is hidden the Sumero Accadian term HUMSJU (moulded piece). Thus the unsettled expression HOUMS-HI KJUPE meant not a 'soft armour' but a cast armour, i.e. a type of armour common in the Middle Ages. From the Preslav inscription it is evident that the armament named HUMSHI KJUPE was available in great quantities, which likewise fits very well the supposition that it denoted moulded and not 'soft' armour.
TOULS-HI. The translation of this word by previous researchers, who all assumed it must be translated as helmet, was quite precise. Also the quantity of this article was large (over 1000 pieces), which correlates with the number of the aforementioned armaments since carrying helmets was mandatory. So far the Turkic word "tuldzha" is the only form suggested as similar to the word "touls-hi ". But, as in the case with "kjupe", no further attempts were undertaken to find similarities. Having in mind that the Proto-Bulgarian word was pronounced as "tulshi" (since sometimes the Greek combination "s-h" denoted the sound "sh") it appears that the Proto-Bulgarian word is closer to the Sumero Accadian term TULSJU (helmet) (formed from the Sumerian root TUL [cover]) rather than to the Turkic "tuldzha". Therefore, for the sake of accuracy it must be pointed out that 'tulshi' is not a Turkic term, but a term which was born in the oldest human civilization and which in relatively late times spread among the Turkic peoples settled in the western areas.
HLOBRIN. There was a consensus that this word, as well as the word ESTROGIN, is of Turkic origin and it was assumed that it meant "saddle". But HLOBRIN should have been a very rare article since the inscription of Preslav mentions only one copy of it, which apparently contradicts its interpretation as a "saddle". Similar to the Proto-Bulgarian word HLOBRIN were some ancient terms, common among the Indo European peoples - for example the Pamir word "hulburae" (protection cover) and the Celtic word "hlubram" (canopy). Therefore HLOBRIN was most probably a large protection device, used for assaulting fortresses.
Now we can translate the whole Preslav inscription as:
THE BOIL OF THE FORTRESS (or OF THE FORTIFIED CAMP)
HAS 455 CAST ARMOUR
AND 540 HELMETS,
427 MAIL ARMOUR
AND 854 HELMETS.
THE MAIN ZHUPAN OF THE TRIBE HAS
20 MAIL ARMOUR,
40 HELMETS,
ONE SIEGE TOWER
AND ONE CANOPY.