Poles vs East Slavs: Who's more genetically closest to Early Slavs?

[cass]

Thanks for this. I have a few questions about this, if you don't mind me asking.

1. How de we know it was Proto-Slavic? It definitely goes against the generally accepted theory that Polesia was the homeland of the Slavs and that Slavs expanded into West Slavic areas during the early Medieval Ages.

2. Is there any evidence to suggest they weren't assimilated?

3. Who do Poles cluster with on a PCA?

4. What about other West Slavs (Slovaks, Czechs, Sorbs, Kashubians, etc.) what about them?

There are both autochthonic and allochtonic theories on Slavs presence in Poland.
Russian archaeologists f.o. firmly claim it’s the first one as theory of Polesian marches is very dubious.
I would say otherwise IMHO there is no evidence of E.Slavic influx into Poland. And there are many cons.
I do hope it helps for next q.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...ean-geography/
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/?page_id=5467

[cass]

The presence of the N3 lineage in Eastern Slavs can be most likely explained by the assimilation of Finno Ugric tribes in the course of Slavic migrations from central Europe to the east. In this case, the frequency of haplogroup N3 in Slavs marks the contribution of Finno-Ugric populations to the present-day gene pool of Slavs.
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...71697/download


Of these, subhaplogroup H1 sequence types, which are defined by different combinations of nucleotides 16192T, 16294T, 16304C, 16311C and 16320T, are found predominantly in common between Russians and German-speaking populations. The data obtained allow us to conclude that the Slavonic migrations in early Middle Ages from their putative homeland in central Europe to the east of Europe were accompanied mostly by the same mtDNA types characteristic for the pre-Slavonic populations of eastern Europe.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11415523/

[Karol Klačansky]

Thanks for this. I have a few questions about this, if you don't mind me asking.

1. How de we know it was Proto-Slavic? It definitely goes against the generally accepted theory that Polesia was the homeland of the Slavs and that Slavs expanded into West Slavic areas during the early Medieval Ages.

2. Is there any evidence to suggest they weren't assimilated?

3. Who do Poles cluster with on a PCA?

4. What about other West Slavs (Slovaks, Czechs, Sorbs, Kashubians, etc.) what about them?

My fellow catholic, there are tons of threads on this site about each of u ok ur questions. Please feel free to browse and get a better understanding of these questions. Feiichy also shared a link earlier in the thread which should answer some of your questions.

[Skeleton]

Do you know where some of the threads are? Thank you.

[Skeleton]

There are both autochthonic and allochtonic theories on Slavs presence in Poland.
Russian archaeologists f.o. firmly claim it’s the first one as theory of Polesian marches is very dubious.
I would say otherwise IMHO there is no evidence of E.Slavic influx into Poland. And there are many cons.
I do hope it helps for next q.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...ean-geography/
http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/?page_id=5467

Why do you think northern and eastern Poles cluster with Belarusians and Russians, meanwhile western and southern Poles with Slovaks and Ukrainians? Also, why do west Slavs cluster with an early Slav from Bohemia who showed genetic continuity to the Czech Bell Beakers, but not east Slavs? Finally, is there any genetic, archeological, and linguistic evidence to suggest that the Slavic homeland is in Poland around the Iron Age? Isn’t the Slavic languages too mutually intelligible to be that old?
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...hemia.html?m=1

[cass]

Why do you think northern and eastern Poles cluster with Belarusians and Russians, meanwhile western and southern Poles with Slovaks and Ukrainians? Also, why do west Slavs cluster with an early Slav from Bohemia who showed genetic continuity to the Czech Bell Beakers, but not east Slavs? Finally, is there any genetic, archeological, and linguistic evidence to suggest that the Slavic homeland is in Poland around the Iron Age? Isn’t the Slavic languages too mutually intelligible to be that old?
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/0...hemia.html?m=1

I have provided few genetic hints and one linguistic. There is massive scientific debate so just start looking for. Late Przeworsk ceramic is indistinguishable from Prague Korchak to bring up one of the arguments.
No. Proto-Balto-Slavic language broke up ca 1500 BC and from linguistic point of view most probably Slavs divided Balts from Germanics.
In order to fully understand migrations between IA and ME we evidently need more DNA samples from this time. Burial ritual (cremation) practised by early Slavs doesn’t really helps IMHO.

[cass]

Radimichians and the Vyatichians sprang from the Lyakhs. There were in fact among the Lyakhs two brothers, one named Radim and other Vyatko. Radim settled on the Sozh', where the people are known as Radimichians, and Vyatko with his family settled on the Oka.

Maybe Primary Chronicle (Tale of Bygone Years) has some value. This is just my speculation.

http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/wp-.../Ris.-5.16.jpg

[Skeleton]

I have provided few genetic hints and one linguistic. There is massive scientific debate so just start looking for. Late Przeworsk ceramic is indistinguishable from Prague Korchak to bring up one of the arguments.
No. Proto-Balto-Slavic language broke up ca 1500 BC and from linguistic point of view most probably Slavs divided Balts from Germanics.
In order to fully understand migrations between IA and ME we evidently need more DNA samples from this time. Burial ritual (cremation) practised by early Slavs doesn’t really helps IMHO.

Thanks for this. You've been a great help.

[Brutus]

Thanks for this. However, do we know of the genetic origins of West Slavs, Poles in particular?

I can't speak widely regarding this. However, Poles seem to have some extra Germanic admixture compared to other Slavs (South and East) especially considering many Germanic cultures were present in some of the territories of modern-day Poland.. But Europeans, in general, descend from pretty much the same three groups: Early Neolithic Farmers, Hunter-gatherers and the Steppe invaders who are the Indo-European speakers most likely, in different percentages. (Some populations like Hungarians and Finns have some East Asian-shifted admix. as well).

[Skeleton]

I can't speak widely regarding this. However, Poles seem to have some extra Germanic admixture compared to other Slavs (South and East) especially considering many Germanic cultures were present in some of the territories of modern-day Poland.. But Europeans, in general, descend from pretty much the same three groups: Early Neolithic Farmers, Hunter-gatherers and the Steppe invaders who are the Indo-European speakers most likely, in different percentages. (Some populations like Hungarians and Finns have some East Asian-shifted admix. as well).

So could it be that Poles received Germanic admixture when the Goths invaded the area? Where do you think the Slavic homeland was? Also, do you know any tests I can do to see what % Slavic, Germanic, Celtic, etc. I am? Thanks.