Why is Portugal relatively poor?

[luc2112]

Yep. People usually don't have a problem with discarding overall GDP as irrelevant and that's correct, as nobody in his right mind would say India is better off than Norway. But plenty of them fail to realize adjusting for prices is a relevant thing. Sure, an average Norwegian can afford more than an average Nigerian with their salary in the global context. But Norwegians are living in Norway, not Nigeria or anywhere else. That's kind of a striking example, but it illustrates the point well. Where this is actually visible would be something like Czechia vs Austria. Basically the same standard of living, since price and salary ratios of most of the stuff cancel each other out.

If a coutry's per capita income increases, the cost of living increases. You need to analyze the most important parameters. Housing (size, cost of water and energy, etc ...) food, education, health and transport.

For middle class people in general in countries with higher per capita income, they pay less (equivalent) for non-durable products (not is property/goods). Such as home appliances, automobiles and electronics.

[solarisregvm]

Average IQ of 93. Acording to Richard Lynn's research and mediocre scores in PISA meassurements in comparission with the rest bof western Europe.

The reason it has to do with culture and historical misfortunes than anything to do with intelligence.
Due to mass migration from ex-colonies and braindrain to other european countries, that is ocurring during decades, IQ has been dropping steadily.
According to the most referenced study done about IQ in the 80's (the Buj study) Portugal was on the top percentile of european countries IQ



Source: https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/NationalIQs.aspx

but even so even today has the best south european results for education and on par with the european 1st league.

[Tongio]

The reason it has to do with culture and historical misfortunes than anything to do with intelligence.
Due to mass migration from ex-colonies and braindrain to other european countries, that is ocurring during decades, IQ has been dropping steadily.
According to the most referenced study done about IQ in the 80's (the Buj study) Portugal was on the top percentile of european countries IQ



Source: https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/NationalIQs.aspx

but even so even today has the best south european results for education results and on par with the european 1st league.

Vocês tem aquecimento nas casas no norte de portugal ?Tipo é comum as casas já terem aquecimento? Ou depende da pessoa conseguir pagar um aquecimento a parte ? é uma dúvida que me ocorreu agora, sei que é deve ser bem frio aí no inverno.

[solarisregvm]

I'm a huge critic in some things in my country, you can see the reasons here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...38#post7385638 but I will give another perspective to you and others that read this.

This is the Prosperity Index, created by the Legatum.



Unlike the HDI, I like this index.

This is because it addresses more issues than the HDI. This one is satisfied by evaluating three indicators: Long and healthy life (using average life expectancy), Education (measuring the average number of years of schooling and years of compulsory schooling) and Decent level of quality of life (using the GDP per capita PPP, ie in international dollars, adapted to the local cost of living).

Now, I think any enlightened person realizes that HDI is a poor analysis. Should human development not take into account pollution, security or personal freedom? The HDI does not address any of this. The Prosperity Index, being imperfect, deals with this. What's more, it also takes into account the state of the infrastructure (something crucial!), the investment conditions. Between others. It is, therefore, a much more complete analysis than that of the HDI.

What does one conclude then? Portugal is the 26th most prosperous country in the world! One place below Spain and three below France, it is the 18th most prosperous place in Europe. Bearing in mind that Europe is made up of 47 countries... I don't understand how you can be in the second quintile (the most prosperous 40%) and at the same time be less prosperous. So what is a Serbia or a Northern Macedonia, which has 31 and 32 European countries, respectively, ahead?

It's one of the safest countries in the world (unless I'm wrong in 3rd place this year out of 200 countries), we have an excellent climate, incredible culture, all kinds of micro-climates and landscapes in a small country (we can be in the snow doing it snowboarding in the morning and surfing on the beach in the afternoon), a multitude of Nature, fauna, culture, etc., incredible, and we are at the center of the planet if we look closely, uniting the Americas, Europe and Africa. We have one of the biggest exclusive economic zones in the world, etc, etc, etc. And our history? We have shaped the world, even though it is not a perfect Story, which no one has.

And I would a thousand times prefer to live in Portugal than in the USA or certain countries where you earn more and there is more insecurity, worse climate, less plurality, etc.

And the real purchasing power is what matters. There are those who go abroad to work to earn more money, when inside despite earning less, they buy more with what they earn than abroad.

A part of the Portuguese, however, usually speak ill of their own country, forget that they live in a privileged place on the planet, and that compared to the rest of the world they are rich, they only look at the richest countries in Europe and want to be equal, and that is understandable, to try to be better. But we're not as bad as some think.

That's why we're one of the poorest countries in Europe is false.

We may not have had a few good years lately, and I remember that the Troika crisis was a speculative attack, there are even NY Times articles like Opinion | Portugal's Unnecessary Bailout in which they say that Portugal only had to ask the IMF for help because it was the victim of a speculative attack https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/13/o...13fishman.html, I usually jokingly say that the big US capitalists needed a country starting with "P", to create the acronym "PIGS of Europe", or "PIIGS" (Portugal + Ireland + Italy + Greece + Spain), and from there, they attacked Portugal, lowered ratings, raising debt interest rates in relation to GDP, and this sinks any country. It was provoked, and it made our country worse, but even so, we are in the richest half of Europe, and at least the richest 1/4 in the world, we are one of the safest countries, etc.

And how can you not like a country like this?





In short, we are not the poorest, this is false, we may not be the richest in terms of money, but we are in many other things. If a Portuguese person speaks ill of the country, it is because he doesn't know the rest of the world. Improving is good, however, and we want it.

If I had to choose between never being able to leave the Iberian peninsula (I love the entire peninsula, Portugal and Spain), my whole life, or living my whole life outside of it and never being able to return here, I would choose without thinking twice, never leaving this peninsula .

We are not one of the poorest in terms of money, this is false, and for the rest, we are not that poor at all.

For me it is a paradise, we can always improve, and we wish, but I will never leave here, nor do I want to.

[Tooting Carmen]

Just as an aside, I am surprised that Peru makes the list but not either Mexico or Argentina.

[solarisregvm]

But there are things that make me mad every day.

Because generally people don't know this side of Europe, they don't know the reality of several countries. I'm going to make a lot of generalizations so anti-generalizations don't start with "oh but we're all different and all the same". Of course we are, but there is a probability that things will happen in certain ways.

Life is a completely different concept

In any country in southern Europe, life is tastier, more intense, and interesting. People really are too busy enjoying life, they don't have time to deal with shit. The focus is on savoring life.

I understand that they [from the North] might think they're a little better but they're not that much

I really don't understand some people in Northern Europe who think that just because they have a better job and the wages are so much better, that they might think that in Southern Europe you don't strictly do anything. It's really irritating when I say that I'm Portuguese and 99% of people think I'm lazy, corrupt, that I'm not strict. I understand that we don't have such good salaries, but to generalize so much and say that the Portuguese are and have always been so insignificant is something at least with little thought. Not so long ago these countries were hundreds of times less developed than Portugal (I know the world changes but not that quickly). We have a lot to improve but don't put us in the same bag with an African country that doesn't have our conditions. We are a country that was very rich and made a great contribution to the world, and despite the widespread ignorance of the population, it still had quite decent wages and acceptable standards of living even in the dictatorial periods.

Did you know that in France until the mid-sixties, that is, until then Prime Minister Georges Pompidou (1962-1968) started the so-called urban revolution, a magnificent building program designed to accommodate the popular urban classes, 45% of French people didn't had bathroom, running water and electricity. In Paris, only 20% of the apartments had a bathroom, whereby residents shared access to weekly showers and toilets.



Explaining what it means to be Portuguese

Sometimes I think that it's not even possible to explain what it means to be Portuguese to a North European. Being kind, generous, enjoying food, at the same time being very hardworking and given to interaction with all peoples is something that is really difficult to explain. Just some weeks ago, I was explaining to some Finns that in Portugal it's super normal to talk to unknown people either in the café or restaurant or anywhere else… they simply despised it and said they don't like small talk or talking to strangers. Sometimes I think that the main reason for the development of these peoples is perhaps the lack of development of human/social values/collectivism. They are so often so cold, so rude, so unliving in life, and so law-abiding that I often get really upset at how we can regard such peoples as developed.

Let's compare

Well, they like to compare so let's compare south and north, according to my experience, in reference to southern Europe.

Food in southern Europe is — 20 times better
Nice, easy-going people — 100 times better
Intensity of living life — 50 times better
How the law works — it's 1 time worse
Climate and Weather — it's 200 times better
Salaries and opportunities — it's 3 times worse
Success propensity — is 10 times worse.
Good life and 24 hours (it's not just until 6 pm) — it's 200 times better

You, Northern Europeans, think you are so much better but you only have a salary that is 3-4 times higher when we are lower, but with an intensity of what life is completely different. Seriously, you guys think you're so much better for a mere paycheck? There are factors so much more important than wages and opportunities. I prefer a thousand times to have sun every day and good food than to have a salary of 2500 euros. I know it's great to have good jobs and pay but that's far from the end of it. And yes I know I overreacted but it's not that extreme — the food, the atmosphere, the lack of sympathy is really hard to deal with.

Life well lived is much tastier in southern Europe than in the North, and yes I know you know that too, because this is where you spend your holidays. Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece are democracies, they are developed countries, and I would say much more interesting than the overwhelming number of northern European countries. I think people are not judging well when they compare the two realities. Life in southern Europe really is life with pleasure every single day. I think people from Northern Europe have a hard time analyzing the culture of other countries as they really are. They have to realize that there is one factor that makes all the difference—northern Europe is the coldest place in the world for humans to live. It's a climate that doesn't make you want to leave the house. I think because of that there is so much focus on work.

See with eyes to see

I believe that Northern Europeans need to know the reality of southern Europe much better and understand it not according to their reality, but according to the reality of those people. What we consider developed is quite different. It goes as far as downgrading Italians! With all the development, innovations, high GDP per capita and millions of other factors that Northern Europe can only be jealous of. Italy is one of the most developed countries in the world. It has a bigger economy than the Brazilian one and compare population and size. Milan alone is larger in population than almost any Nordic country.

I may be wrong, but at least I say my opinion. I believe that they consider themselves much more evolved for having a strong economy and discolor other characteristics, which in my view are more important and indicators of development than the economy itself. I met several German people and by the way one of my best friends is German (in a very Latin mood) and I even have great respect for all the technological advancements and development after the Second World War. I really consider myself quite rebellious, and I don't really like injustices or that they are so rigid — Flexibility, after all, is in my opinion a much more evolved characteristic than rigidity.

[solarisregvm]

Vocês tem aquecimento nas casas no norte de portugal ?Tipo é comum as casas já terem aquecimento? Ou depende da pessoa conseguir pagar um aquecimento a parte ? é uma dúvida que me ocorreu agora, sei que é deve ser bem frio aí no inverno.

Sobretudo em moradias que não são de nova construção ou que não foram renovadas. Nos anos de 1950 e no boom da construção entre as décadas de 70 e 80 havia no mercado práticas e materiais inadequados. Neste sentido, a ideia culturalmente aceite de que o nosso clima é ameno fez nascer prédios e moradias onde o conforto térmico nunca foi prioritário nem no verão nem no inverno.

Para essas famílias a solução para contornar o frio passa por ligar à tomada de eletricidade o aquecedor a óleo ou o termoventilador. Contudo, esta opção acresce um custo à fatura da eletricidade mensalmente. São quase 39 cêntimos por hora a mais na fatura da luz. Por exemplo, um aquecedor a óleo com 2000 watts de potência consumirá 2 kilowatts hora (kWh) por cada hora ligado. Se se considerar os 15,8 cêntimos por kWh da tarifa regulada, mais IVA, chega-se a um encargo com um só aquecedor de 38,9 cêntimos por hora. Contudo, considerando que o aparelho está ligado seis horas por dia, são 2,33 euros diários a mais na fatura – o que no final do mês são quase mais 70 euros.

Para as famílias de baixos rendimentos que beneficiam da tarifa social, o preço da energia é mais baixo. Na tarifa social o preço do kWh na tarifa simples está em 12,76 cêntimos, o que significa que o uso de um aquecedor a óleo durante seis horas por dia gera um encargo de 1,88 euros diários, ou 56,4 euros mensais.

Portugal tinha no primeiro semestre deste ano um custo final para as famílias de 20,89 cêntimos por kWh em média. Este é um valor que está tanto abaixo da média da União Europeia (21,92 cêntimos por kWh) como da zona euro (23,22 cêntimos).

[Tongio]

Sobretudo em moradias que não são de nova construção ou que não foram renovadas. Nos anos de 1950 e no boom da construção entre as décadas de 70 e 80 havia no mercado práticas e materiais inadequados. Neste sentido, a ideia culturalmente aceite de que o nosso clima é ameno fez nascer prédios e moradias onde o conforto térmico nunca foi prioritário nem no verão nem no inverno.

No sul do Brasil também se pensa assim infelizmente, valeu pela resposta detalhaste tudo muito bem.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Source: https://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/NationalIQs.aspx

That study has small samples for most of the nations, including Portugal. This one is better and specific to Portugal.


https://www.gwern.net/docs/iq/ses/2011-almeida.pdf

[Ruggery]

But there are things that make me mad every day.

Because generally people don't know this side of Europe, they don't know the reality of several countries. I'm going to make a lot of generalizations so anti-generalizations don't start with "oh but we're all different and all the same". Of course we are, but there is a probability that things will happen in certain ways.

Life is a completely different concept

In any country in southern Europe, life is tastier, more intense, and interesting. People really are too busy enjoying life, they don't have time to deal with shit. The focus is on savoring life.

I understand that they [from the North] might think they're a little better but they're not that much

I really don't understand some people in Northern Europe who think that just because they have a better job and the wages are so much better, that they might think that in Southern Europe you don't strictly do anything. It's really irritating when I say that I'm Portuguese and 99% of people think I'm lazy, corrupt, that I'm not strict. I understand that we don't have such good salaries, but to generalize so much and say that the Portuguese are and have always been so insignificant is something at least with little thought. Not so long ago these countries were hundreds of times less developed than Portugal (I know the world changes but not that quickly). We have a lot to improve but don't put us in the same bag with an African country that doesn't have our conditions. We are a country that was very rich and made a great contribution to the world, and despite the widespread ignorance of the population, it still had quite decent wages and acceptable standards of living even in the dictatorial periods.

Did you know that in France until the mid-sixties, that is, until then Prime Minister Georges Pompidou (1962-1968) started the so-called urban revolution, a magnificent building program designed to accommodate the popular urban classes, 45% of French people didn't had bathroom, running water and electricity. In Paris, only 20% of the apartments had a bathroom, whereby residents shared access to weekly showers and toilets.



Explaining what it means to be Portuguese

Sometimes I think that it's not even possible to explain what it means to be Portuguese to a North European. Being kind, generous, enjoying food, at the same time being very hardworking and given to interaction with all peoples is something that is really difficult to explain. Just some weeks ago, I was explaining to some Finns that in Portugal it's super normal to talk to unknown people either in the café or restaurant or anywhere else… they simply despised it and said they don't like small talk or talking to strangers. Sometimes I think that the main reason for the development of these peoples is perhaps the lack of development of human/social values/collectivism. They are so often so cold, so rude, so unliving in life, and so law-abiding that I often get really upset at how we can regard such peoples as developed.

Let's compare

Well, they like to compare so let's compare south and north, according to my experience, in reference to southern Europe.

Food in southern Europe is — 20 times better
Nice, easy-going people — 100 times better
Intensity of living life — 50 times better
How the law works — it's 1 time worse
Climate and Weather — it's 200 times better
Salaries and opportunities — it's 3 times worse
Success propensity — is 10 times worse.
Good life and 24 hours (it's not just until 6 pm) — it's 200 times better

You, Northern Europeans, think you are so much better but you only have a salary that is 3-4 times higher when we are lower, but with an intensity of what life is completely different. Seriously, you guys think you're so much better for a mere paycheck? There are factors so much more important than wages and opportunities. I prefer a thousand times to have sun every day and good food than to have a salary of 2500 euros. I know it's great to have good jobs and pay but that's far from the end of it. And yes I know I overreacted but it's not that extreme — the food, the atmosphere, the lack of sympathy is really hard to deal with.

Life well lived is much tastier in southern Europe than in the North, and yes I know you know that too, because this is where you spend your holidays. Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece are democracies, they are developed countries, and I would say much more interesting than the overwhelming number of northern European countries. I think people are not judging well when they compare the two realities. Life in southern Europe really is life with pleasure every single day. I think people from Northern Europe have a hard time analyzing the culture of other countries as they really are. They have to realize that there is one factor that makes all the difference—northern Europe is the coldest place in the world for humans to live. It's a climate that doesn't make you want to leave the house. I think because of that there is so much focus on work.

See with eyes to see

I believe that Northern Europeans need to know the reality of southern Europe much better and understand it not according to their reality, but according to the reality of those people. What we consider developed is quite different. It goes as far as downgrading Italians! With all the development, innovations, high GDP per capita and millions of other factors that Northern Europe can only be jealous of. Italy is one of the most developed countries in the world. It has a bigger economy than the Brazilian one and compare population and size. Milan alone is larger in population than almost any Nordic country.

I may be wrong, but at least I say my opinion. I believe that they consider themselves much more evolved for having a strong economy and discolor other characteristics, which in my view are more important and indicators of development than the economy itself. I met several German people and by the way one of my best friends is German (in a very Latin mood) and I even have great respect for all the technological advancements and development after the Second World War. I really consider myself quite rebellious, and I don't really like injustices or that they are so rigid — Flexibility, after all, is in my opinion a much more evolved characteristic than rigidity.

What does that mean? That a person can undertake better in the north of Europe than in Portugal?