Attn: Greek and Bulgar trolls of the Macedonian section

[-Invictus-]

I dont get why macedonians are so adamant about beig different from bulgarians, honestly. I hope they know serbia and greece use this to their advantage, if macedonia was part of bulgaria man you guys would be a force to be reckoned with. Like Macedonians would gain so much more history if they did that. Fucking hell, idk i understand standing your ground and all that but idk

It's a tough pill to swallow. I can place myself in their shoes. I just hope they understand that admitting the big Bulgarian part of their history will bring them mostly benefits. The majority of Bulgarians don't look at them as traitors, but as lost brothers. Actually the Bulgarians who see them as traitors(the overly nationalistic ones) will be the happiest if Macedonians embrace their history. We are not Tatars. We are not Nazis. We don't have plans to take over their country. If they recognize their Bulgarian roots we will undoubtedly support them in any political trouble they have. The only downside is that there may be some Bulgarian politicians trying to take advantage of that. They may try but their success relies solely on the response of the Macedonian people. If Macedonian people want to stay independent no Bulgarian can change that. The only major differences will be that Macedonian will recognize a big historical part of their identity and will improve their relations with Bulgaria tenfold.

[Uski]

It's a tough pill to swallow. I can place myself in their shoes. I just hope they understand that admitting the big Bulgarian part of their history will bring them mostly benefits. The majority of Bulgarians don't look at them as traitors, but as lost brothers. Actually the Bulgarians who see them as traitors(the overly nationalistic ones) will be the happiest if Macedonians embrace their history. We are not Tatars. We are not Nazis. We don't have plans to take over their country. If they recognize their Bulgarian roots we will undoubtedly support them in any political trouble they have. The only downside is that there may be some Bulgarian politicians trying to take advantage of that. They may try but their success relies solely on the response of the Macedonian people. If Macedonian people want to stay independent no Bulgarian can change that. The only major differences will be that Macedonian will recognize a big historical part of their identity and will improve their relations with Bulgaria tenfold.

The nationalist in me would tell me to support their claims, purely to alienate them from the Bulgarians. We albanians have it good tbh, we seperated the maks from you now we are 1/3 of the country, we separated montenegro from serbia and our lang is official there, now all we need is a fucking independent Epirus to form that HATES greeks and gives us MPs to vote form coalitions in the gov to not let the pro greek ULTRANATIONALISTS(lol) take power. I mean thats basically what macedonia and montenegro do, so say if someone (like turkey for example) were to try to fuck with greece they would pick a place with a minority and support independence there. Then you would have MACEDONIANS supporting their ethnic identity XD Imagine fucken hell ey.

But yeah, maks are good to us here, they dont treat us differently. Atleast the ones that know english, theyre usually chill. Im sure yall will warm up to each other again, only thing in the way is time. (Atleast i think so, if the bulgarians get what they ask for in their histpry demmands their history will basically be from like 1944)
They wpnt have too much of a choice

[-Invictus-]

The nationalist in me would tell me to support their claims, purely to alienate them from the Bulgarians. We albanians have it good tbh, we seperated the maks from you now we are 1/3 of the country, we separated montenegro from serbia and our lang is official there, now all we need is a fucking independent Epirus to form that HATES greeks and gives us MPs to vote form coalitions in the gov to not let the pro greek ULTRANATIONALISTS(lol) take power. I mean thats basically what macedonia and montenegro do, so say if someone (like turkey for example) were to try to fuck with greece they would pick a place with a minority and support independence there. Then you would have MACEDONIANS supporting their ethnic identity XD Imagine fucken hell ey.

But yeah, maks are good to us here, they dont treat us differently. Atleast the ones that know english, theyre usually chill. Im sure yall will warm up to each other again, only thing in the way is time. (Atleast i think so, if the bulgarians get what they ask for in their histpry demmands their history will basically be from like 1944)
They wpnt have too much of a choice

I'm not sure I understood what you mean about Epirus. As far as I know there are Greeks in Northern Epirus and Albanians in Southern Epirus. Not sure about the situation there, but I think we have enough small states in the Balkans and we should practice more unity than division. The motto of Bulgaria, for example, is "Unity makes strength". USA, EU, Russia and China are good examples of that principle working.

Glad to hear that you are getting along well with the Macedonians. About Macedonians recognizing the Bulgarian part of their history, they won't lose all history before 1944... They will still have all the history that led to the creation of the Macedonian country. The only major difference is that they will recognize their history without molding it to fit a political agenda. Example - Thracian history is a part of the history of Bulgarian people. That doesn't make it history of the Bulgarian country or exclusive only to Bulgarians. We recognize the ancient people of Thrace as Thracians, not ancient Bulgarians(some lunatic historians may do) It's just one piece of the puzzle that makes up the modern Bulgarian people. That's why I have this profile picture. It represents the creation of Bulgaria. A union of Bulgars, Thracians and Slavs. That doesn't take away the Thracian heritage from the Greeks and Turks in the region of Thrace and the other Balkan countries that had Thracian tribes in their lands. About Slavs, it's obvious. About Bulgars, it's complicated. The point is that we can be proud of all the history that led to the creation of the Bulgarian country and ethnicity without appropriating it.

[Uski]

I'm not sure I understood what you mean about Epirus. As far as I know there are Greeks in Northern Epirus and Albanians in Southern Epirus. Not sure about the situation there, but I think we have enough small states in the Balkans and we should practice more unity than division. The motto of Bulgaria, for example, is "Unity makes strength". USA, EU, Russia and China are good examples of that principle working.

Glad to hear that you are getting along well with the Macedonians. About Macedonians recognizing the Bulgarian part of their history, they won't lose all history before 1944... They will still have all the history that led to the creation of the Macedonian country. The only major difference is that they will recognize their history without molding it to fit a political agenda. Example - Thracian history is a part of the history of Bulgarian people. That doesn't make it history of the Bulgarian country or exclusive only to Bulgarians. We recognize the ancient people of Thrace as Thracians, not ancient Bulgarians(some lunatic historians may do) It's just one piece of the puzzle that makes up the modern Bulgarian people. That's why I have this profile picture. It represents the creation of Bulgaria. A union of Bulgars, Thracians and Slavs. That doesn't take away the Thracian heritage from the Greeks and Turks in the region of Thrace and the other Balkan countries that had Thracian tribes in their lands. About Slavs, it's obvious. About Bulgars, it's complicated. The point is that we can be proud of all the history that led to the creation of the Bulgarian country and ethnicity without appropriating it.

I used it as an example to show how some albanians support the macedonian identity to fight a union with bulgaria and how some support the montenegrin identity to fight union with serbia. Epirus would be the greek cognate, they would speak with a different accent, would claim pyrrhus was epirote but not greek, and they would keep albanians in power with them to keel the greco-epirote unionists at bay. I use this example whenever i see a hypocritikal greek talk about maks being a different ethnicity than bulgarians. While i believe so too, they always get pissy and say epirus is greek bla bla bla, which isnt wrong per say its just a double standard. Its literally divide and conquer like holy shit. I hope you udnerstand my rambling now

[-Invictus-]

I used it as an example to show how some albanians support the macedonian identity to fight a union with bulgaria and how some support the montenegrin identity to fight union with serbia. Epirus would be the greek cognate, they would speak with a different accent, would claim pyrrhus was epirote but not greek, and they would keep albanians in power with them to keel the greco-epirote unionists at bay. I use this example whenever i see a hypocritikal greek talk about maks being a different ethnicity than bulgarians. While i believe so too, they always get pissy and say epirus is greek bla bla bla, which isnt wrong per say its just a double standard. Its literally divide and conquer like holy shit. I hope you udnerstand my rambling now

I understand now. I don't think division is a good strategy for us. Divided we are weak and global powers will pull our strings forever. If I had a magic stick to reform the Balkans(get ready for it) I would unite Bulgaria and Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo, Serbia and Montenegro, Romania and Moldova and probably Greece and Cyprus. Then I would unite everyone in a Balkan Alliance, including Croatia, Bosnia and Slovenia(if they feel Balkan, I'm not sure if they identify as Balkan or Central European). No centralized government or army like Serbia in Yugoslavia. Not a full blown federation or union. Something like the Visegrad Group. Every government has equal rights and voice in the alliance. The only goal - stability, prosperity and political independence of the Balkans. A man can dream

[Crn Volk]

I understand now. I don't think division is a good strategy for us. Divided we are weak and global powers will pull our strings forever. If I had a magic stick to reform the Balkans(get ready for it) I would unite Bulgaria and Macedonia, Albania and Kosovo, Serbia and Montenegro, Romania and Moldova and probably Greece and Cyprus. Then I would unite everyone in a Balkan Alliance, including Croatia, Bosnia and Slovenia(if they feel Balkan, I'm not sure if they identify as Balkan or Central European). No centralized government or army like Serbia in Yugoslavia. Not a full blown federation or union. Something like the Visegrad Group. Every government has equal rights and voice in the alliance. The only goal - stability, prosperity and political independence of the Balkans. A man can dream

So Uski, Albanians would be ok with Bulgaro-Macedonian union?

[-Invictus-]

Found this in a Youtube comment.

"International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars
Members of the Balkan Commission of Inquiry
AUSTRIA: Dr, Josef Redlich, Professor of Public Law in the University of Vienna.
FRANCE: Baron d’Estournelles de Constant, Senator.; M. Justin Godart, lawyer and Member of the Chamber of Deputies.
GERMANY: Dr. Walther Schiicking, Professor of Law at the University of Marburg.
Great Britain: Francis \W. Hirst, Esq., Editor of The Economist; Dr. H. N. -Brailsford, journalist.
Russia: Professor Paul Milioukov, Member of the Douma.
Unitep States: Dr. Samuel T. Dutton, Professor in Teachers’ College, Columbia University.
https://books.google.com/books?id=keWGAAAAMAAJ
page 50/51

We find this struggle in Macedonia from the first days of the Servian and Greek occupation onwards. At first there was general rejoicing and an outburst of popular gratitude towards the liberators. The Macedonian revolutionaries themselves had foreseen and encouraged this feeling. They said in their proclamation to our brothers," published by the delegates of the twenty-five Macedonian confederacies on October 5/18, i.e., at the very beginning of the war:
"Brothers:-your sufferings and your pains have touched the heart of your kindred. Moved by the sacred duty of fraternal compassion, they come to your aid to free you from the Turkish yoke. In return for their sacrifice they desire nothing but to reéstablish peace and order in the land of our birth. Come to meet these brave knights of freedom therefore with triumphal crowns. Cover the way before their feet with flowers and glory. And be magnanimous to those who yesterday were your masters. As true Christians, give them not evil for evil. Long live liberty! Long live the brave army of liberation!" In fact the Servian army entered the north and the Greek army the south of Macedonia, amid cries of joy from the population. But this enthusiasm for the liberators soon gave place to doubts, then to disenchantment, and finally was converted to
hatred and despair. The Bulgarian journal published at Salonica, Bulgarine, first records some discouraging cases whose number was swollen by the presence of certain individuals. chauvinists of a peculiar turn, who gave offence to the national sentiment of the country by the risks they ran. "It is the imperative duty of the powers in occupation,", said the journal, "to keep attentive watch over the behavior of irresponsible persons." Alas! five days later (November 20) the journal had to lay it down, as a general condition of the stability of the alliance, that the powers in occupation should show toleration to all nationalities and refrain from treating some of them as enemies. Four days later the journal,
instead of attacking the persons responsible. was denouncing the powers who in their blind chauvinism take no account of the national sentiments of the people temporarily subject to them. They still, however, cherished the hope that the local authorities were acting without the knowledge of Belgrade. The next day the editor wrote his leader under a question addressed to the Allied Governments: "Is this a war of liberation or a war of conquest?" He knew the reply well enough; the Greek authorities forbade the existence of this Bulgarian paper in their town of Salonica.

The illusion of the inhabitants likewise disappeared before the touch of reality. The Servian soldier, like the Greek, was firmly persuaded that in Macedonia he would find compatriots, men who could speak his language and address him with 'jivio' or 'zito'. He found men speaking a language different from his, who cried 'hourrah!' He misunderstood or did not understand at all.
The theory he had learned from youth of the existence of a Servian Macedonia and a Greek Macedonia naturally suffered but his patriotic conviction that Macedonia must become Greek or Servian, if not so already, remained unaffected. Doubtless Macedonia had been what he wanted it to become in those times of Douchan the Strong or the Byzantine Emperors. It was only agitators and propagandist Bulgarians who instilled into the population the idea of being Bulgarian. The agitators must be driven out of the country, and it would again become what it had always been, Servian or Greek. Accordingly they acted on this basis.

Who were these agitators who had made the people forget the Greek and Servian tongues? First, they were the priests; then the schoolmasters; lastly the revolutionary elements who, under the ancient regime, had formed an organization; heads of bands and their members, peasants who had supplied them with money or food,- in a. word the whole of the male population, in so far as it was educated and informed. It was much easier for a Servian or a Greek to discover all these criminal patriots than it had been for the Turkish authorities, under the absolutist régime, to do so. The means of awakening the national conscience were much better known to Greeks and Servians, for one thing, since they were accustomed to use them for their own cause. Priests, schoolmasters, bands existed among the Greeks and Servians, as well as among the Bulgarians. In Macedonia the difference, as we know, lay in the fact that the schoolmaster or priest, the Servian voyévoda or Greek andarte, addressed himself to the minority, and had to recruit his own following instead of finding them ready made. Isolated in the midst of a Bulgarian population, he made terms with Turkish power while the national Bulgarian organizations fought against it. Since the representative of the national minority lived side by side with his Bulgarian neighbors, and knew them far better than did the Turkish official or policeman, he could supply the latter with the exact information. He learned still more during the last few vears of general truce between the Christian nationalities and growing alliance against the Turk. Almost admitted to the plot, many secrets were known to him. It was but natural he should use this knowledge for the advantage of the compatriots who had appeared in the guise of liberators. On the arrival of his army, he was no longer solitary, isolated and despised ; he became useful and necessary, and was proud of serving the national cause. With his aid, denunciation became an all powerful weapon; it penetrated
to the recesses of local life and revived events of the past unknown to the Turkish authorities. These men, regarded by the population as leaders and venerated as heroes, were arrested and punished like mere vagabonds and brigands, while the dregs were raised to greatness.

This progressive disintegration of social and national life began in Macedonia with the entry of the armies of occupation, and did not cease during the eight months which lie between the beginning of the first war and the beginning of the second. It could not fail to produce the most profound changes. The Bulgarian nation was decapitated.

To combat the Bulgarian schools was more difficult. The time was alreadylong past when the schoolmaster was necessarily a member of the "interior organization". The purely professional element had steadily displaced the apostles and martyrs of preceding generations. But the conquerors saw things as they had been decades ago. For them the schoolmaster was always the conspirator, the dangerous man who must be gotten rid of, and the school, however strictly "professional," was a center from which Bulgarian civilization emanated. This is why the school became the object of systematic attack on the part of Servians and Greeks. Their first act on arriving in any place whatsoever was to close the schools and use them as quarters for the soldiery. Then the teachers of the village were collected together and told that their services were no longer re-
quired if they refused to teach in Greek or Servian. Those who continued to declare themselves Bulgarians were exposed to a persecution whose severity varied with the length of their resistance. Even the most intransigeant had to avow themselves beaten in the end; if not, they were sometimes allowed to depart for Bulgaria, but more usually sent to prison in Salonica or Uskub."

Here is info about the book :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Report...he_Balkan_Wars

" Among the members of the Commission there were three Nobel Prize winners.[1]"

It's not some average dude paid by X Balkan government to present them as heroes and the rest as bloodthirsty monsters.

http://www.pollitecon.com/html/ebook...alkan-Wars.pdf

Here's the whole pdf. It loads slow, but it's the entire book. Page 64 of the pdf(page 50 of the book) and onward is where these quotes are taken from.

[Uski]

So Uski, Albanians would be ok with Bulgaro-Macedonian union?

I think he meant dividing stuff ethnically, like Struga kicevo gostivar tetovo along with half of skopje, villages of kumanovo and maybe a bit of prespa. The albs stuck in caska and dolneni should move out to like makedonski brod, we get that for compensation for you getting those two alb municipalities. Maks keep ohrid, resen, prilep, bitola ,krushevo etc. Its a great idea i think. Would look something like ww2 borders. You would no longer risk becomming a minority in ur own country, and we would be free to unit woth kosovo or albania or heck even be our own little thing. Honestly that would be best for us, and for you in the long run. Its just that you wanna be your own thing so yeah its unlikely to happen

[Crn Volk]

I think he meant dividing stuff ethnically, like Struga kicevo gostivar tetovo along with half of skopje, villages of kumanovo and maybe a bit of prespa. The albs stuck in caska and dolneni should move out to like makedonski brod, we get that for compensation for you getting those two alb municipalities. Maks keep ohrid, resen, prilep, bitola ,krushevo etc. Its a great idea i think. Would look something like ww2 borders. You would no longer risk becomming a minority in ur own country, and we would be free to unit woth kosovo or albania or heck even be our own little thing. Honestly that would be best for us, and for you in the long run. Its just that you wanna be your own thing so yeah its unlikely to happen

Struga, Kicevo, Kumanovo, Skopje you can forget about.

This is the best you can hope for

https://reliefweb.int/report/former-...partition-plan

And that is only through war

[Vojnik]

I think he meant dividing stuff ethnically, like Struga kicevo gostivar tetovo along with half of skopje, villages of kumanovo and maybe a bit of prespa. The albs stuck in caska and dolneni should move out to like makedonski brod, we get that for compensation for you getting those two alb municipalities. Maks keep ohrid, resen, prilep, bitola ,krushevo etc. Its a great idea i think. Would look something like ww2 borders. You would no longer risk becomming a minority in ur own country, and we would be free to unit woth kosovo or albania or heck even be our own little thing. Honestly that would be best for us, and for you in the long run. Its just that you wanna be your own thing so yeah its unlikely to happen

Struga, the home of Macedonian poetry? No thanks.