Are Amerindians genetically closer to some Caucasoids like Saami, Udmurt, Turkmen than to SE Asians?

[Maguzanci]

Its interesting. They are genetically so removed from almost anyone.


Distance to: Bolivian_Pando
0.37482517 Chukchi
0.46578350 Selkup
0.46690386 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.46912689 Mongolian
0.48122997 Uzbek
0.50594513 Yakut
0.50729579 Bahun
0.50748380 Turkmen
0.51045570 Udmurt
0.51133574 Saami
0.51580408 Besermyan
0.51980377 Japanese
0.52512108 Burusho
0.52920038 Tatar_Kazan
0.53314480 Bengali_Bangladesh
0.53445941 Tajik
0.53875048 Malay
0.53923119 Cambodian
0.55087804 Punjabi_Lahore
0.55367936 Indonesian_Bali
0.55923408 Luzon


Distance to: Quechua
0.38077128 Chukchi
0.47253585 Selkup
0.47581612 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.47625881 Mongolian
0.49056215 Uzbek
0.51054983 Yakut
0.51620540 Bahun
0.51714250 Turkmen
0.51966136 Udmurt
0.52042742 Saami
0.52524909 Besermyan
0.52534058 Japanese
0.53218604 Han_Henan
0.53420339 Burusho
0.53882926 Tatar_Kazan
0.54182972 Bengali_Bangladesh
0.54397058 Tajik
0.54438149 Malay
0.54479623 Cambodian
0.55893772 Indonesian_Bali
0.55965967 Punjabi_Lahore
0.56431798 Luzon


Distance to: Zapotec
0.36622119 Chukchi
0.46766472 Selkup
0.46896188 Mongolian
0.47991034 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.49682914 Uzbek
0.50164216 Yakut
0.51363727 Japanese
0.52106123 Han_Henan
0.52185542 Bahun
0.52690838 Turkmen
0.52952801 Udmurt
0.53011325 Saami
0.53583441 Besermyan
0.53735803 Cambodian
0.53786756 Malay
0.54331078 Burusho
0.54628552 Bengali_Bangladesh
0.55062215 Tatar_Kazan
0.55259805 Indonesian_Bali
0.55604317 Luzon
0.55624891 Tajik
0.56624847 Punjabi_Lahore

[Trouble]

For there to be such large distances between Native Americans and Eurasian populations, one or more of three things has to be true.

1)The ancestors of Native Americans left Eurasia much longer than 15,000 years ago. Maybe 40,000 years.
2)Native Americans are descended from a diverged ghost population in Eurasia which was very distinct from any remaining now.
3)Native Americans underwent a severe bottleneck at some point causing them to diverge heavily.

[Roy]

For there to be such large distances between Native Americans and Eurasian populations, one or more of three things has to be true.

1)The ancestors of Native Americans left Eurasia much longer than 15,000 years ago. Maybe 40,000 years.
2)Native Americans are descended from a diverged ghost population in Eurasia which was very distinct from any remaining now.
3)Native Americans underwent a severe bottleneck at some point causing them to diverge heavily.

I think all three might be true. Albeit I think that they (Amerindian source population) has actually considerably differentiated itself and been isolated for many thousands in years while still in Asia + Beringia.

[Komintasavalta]

Based on FST distances between populations in the 1240K+HO dataset, the Eurasian population that Zapotecs are the closest to are Kazakhs. Zapotecs are also surprisingly close to Khakasses and Altaians, but maybe it's because of high ANE in Siberia.

In general, Central Asians have relatively low F2 and FST distance to other populations, because they are mixed populations that have large effective population size. Volga Tatars are another mixed population like them, so in my FST run below, Zapotecs are closer to Kazan Tatars than to any Southeast Asian population. However Udmurts are a more drifted population, so Zapotecs are further from Udmurts than from Cambodians.

The European population that Zapotecs are the closest to are Nogais from Stavropol, which is a city north of North Caucasus. In a global K3 ADMIXTURE run, Nogais from Stavropol had 47% of a Mongoloid component.

FST_distance_to_Zapotec Population Percentage_of_Mongoloid_component_in_global_K3_run
.0000 Zapotec 83
.0123 Mayan 81
.0142 Mixtec 83
.0179 Bolivian 80
.0206 Quechua 78
.0260 Mixe 88
.0397 Piapoco 89
.0537 Pima 87
.0720 Tlingit 47
.0811 Kazakh 63
.0812 Kyrgyz_Kyrgyzstan 68
.0820 Kyrgyz_Tajikistan 67
.0821 Khakass_Kachin 74
.0823 Uyghur 54
.0824 Kyrgyz_China 70
.0826 Eskimo_ChaplinSireniki 93
.0826 Mongol 84
.0827 Khakass 64
.0827 Altaian 72
.0832 Nogai_Stavropol 47
.0833 Tatar_Siberian 47
.0835 Kazakh_China 75
.0835 Kalmyk 82
.0842 Nogai_Astrakhan 53
.0842 Aleut 36
.0850 Even 68
.0853 Hazara 56
.0866 Tuvinian 82
.0867 Evenk_FarEast 83
.0880 Buryat 86
.0881 Uzbek 38
.0882 Yukagir_Forest 46
.0884 Dongxiang 88
.0900 Tharu 70
.0902 Chukchi 94
.0904 Khamnegan 89
.0913 Newar 66
.0915 Karitiana 91
.0915 Dungan 90
.0916 Mongola 97
.0918 Shor_Mountain 62
.0920 Tubalar 61
.0926 Salar 89
.0927 Yukagir_Tundra 95
.0927 Burmese 87
.0929 Tu 95
.0930 Oroqen 99
.0931 Xibo 98
.0932 Eskimo_Naukan 92
.0932 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye 51
.0937 Daur 98
.0941 Mansi 52
.0941 Turkmen 36
.0945 Yugur 97
.0946 Selkup 65
.0949 Bonan 94
.0951 Bashkir 32
.0957 Hezhen 99
.0960 Magar 89
.0960 Bahun 43
.0966 Tamang 87
.0970 Yakut 88
.0973 Negidal 100
.0976 Dolgan 84
.0979 Tibetan 98
.0987 Gurung 93
.0987 Korean 100
.0989 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia 26
.0994 Nanai 100
.0995 Ulchi 100
.0996 Evenk_Transbaikal 94
.0998 Japanese 100
.1000 Karakalpak 55
.1005 Han 100
.1008 Qiang 100
.1009 Yi 100
.1011 Tatar_Kazan 21
.1019 Bengali 43
.1021 Tujia 100
.1022 Todzin 86
.1023 Chuvash 23
.1027 Cambodian 91
.1030 Malay 90
.1032 Naxi 100
.1036 Udmurt 27
.1037 Burusho 29
.1038 Tajik 17
.1041 Besermyan 25
.1043 Ket 68
.1047 Tagalog 94
.1050 Kinh 100
.1053 Sherpa 98
.1055 Thai 90
.1057 Miao 100
.1059 Tatar_Mishar 16
.1062 Vietnamese 100
.1062 GujaratiB 28
.1062 Rai 96
.1063 Dong 100
.1069 GujaratiA 24
.1069 Dai.DG 100
.1074 Pathan 20
.1076 Shor_Khakassia 62
.1076 Zhuang 100
.1080 GujaratiC 31
.1088 Sindhi_Pakistan 23
.1094 Visayan 97
.1095 Mulam 100
.1103 Dai 100
.1103 She 100
.1104 Tofalar 81
.1106 Punjabi 34
.1113 Maonan 100
.1113 GujaratiD 33
.1119 Enets 75
.1120 Gelao 100
.1139 Jew_Cochin 25
.1142 Li 99
.1146 Surui 90
.1147 Abazin 10
.1149 Kusunda 77
.1152 Russian_Archangelsk_Krasnoborsky 9
.1154 Kabardinian 10
.1156 Koryak 95
.1157 Mordovian 7
.1159 Balochi 13
.1159 Russian 4
.1162 Circassian 9
.1164 Ilocano 100
.1167 Tibetan_Yunnan 100
.1169 Kumyk 7
.1171 Nivh 100
.1171 Iranian_Bandari 9
.1173 Balkar 9
.1175 Brahui 14
.1176 Itelmen 94
.1177 Makrani 12
.1189 Karelian 9
.1190 Turkish 5
.1191 Finnish 7
.1194 China_Lahu 100
.1194 Ossetian 8
.1200 Iranian 6
.1201 Veps 10
.1202 Azeri 8
.1203 Lezgin 4
.1207 Karachai 10
.1209 Tabasaran 4
.1210 Adygei 7
.1221 Dusun 99
.1222 Chechen 4
.1227 Nganasan 94
.1228 Ain_Touta.WGA 0
.1230 Estonian 2
.1233 Ingushian 6
.1233 Ukrainian 2
.1236 Hungarian 1
.1239 Belarusian 2
.1241 Yemeni 2
.1243 Kaitag 4
.1247 Avar 4
.1251 Czech 0
.1255 Bulgarian 0
.1256 Romanian 0
.1256 Lebanese 1
.1258 Jordanian 0
.1258 Turkish_Balikesir 14
.1260 Norwegian 1
.1261 Ukrainian_North 1
.1262 Egyptian 0
.1262 Lak 5
.1265 Syrian 1
.1265 English 0
.1267 French 1
.1268 BedouinA 0
.1270 Icelandic 0
.1271 Croatian 0
.1274 Abkhasian 3
.1275 Greek 0
.1275 Albanian 0
.1276 Orcadian 0
.1276 Murut 100
.1277 Lebanese_Muslim 1
.1278 Lithuanian 1
.1278 Spanish 0
.1279 Scottish 0
.1284 Armenian 0
.1285 Tunisian 0
.1287 Sicilian 0
.1288 Georgian.WGA 0
.1288 Italian_North 0
.1291 Georgian 1
.1292 Darginian 4
.1292 Jew_Turkish 0
.1292 Ami 100
.1293 Palestinian 0
.1294 Maltese 0
.1298 Italian_South 0
.1298 Canary_Islander 0
.1301 Libyan 0
.1302 Jew_Ashkenazi 1
.1305 Moroccan 0
.1305 Assyrian 1
.1310 Moldavian 0
.1310 Cypriot 0
.1311 Jew_Moroccan 0
.1318 Armenian.WGA 0
.1323 Greek.WGA 0
.1323 Assyrian.WGA 0
.1324 Lebanese_Christian 0
.1324 Jew_Georgian 1
.1329 Armenian_Hemsheni 1
.1329 Jew_Iranian 1
.1331 Jew_Iraqi 0
.1332 Druze 0
.1334 Spanish_North 0
.1342 Chukchi1 95
.1343 Kalash 18
.1347 Jew_Libyan 0
.1348 Kurd 4
.1358 Saudi 0
.1364 Basque 0
.1366 Jew_Tunisian 0
.1368 Kubachinian 3
.1379 Kurd.WGA 0
.1380 Shaigi.WGA 0
.1383 Burbur.WGA 0
.1396 Jew_Yemenite 0
.1397 Mozabite 0
.1404 Afar.WGA 1
.1415 Kankanaey 100
.1420 Algerian 0
.1422 Jew_Ethiopian 1
.1428 Sardinian 0
.1434 Azeri.WGA 0
.1438 Saharawi 0
.1507 BedouinB 0
.1538 Saami.WGA 23
.1539 Somali 1
.1541 Atayal 100
.1595 Datog 2
.1677 Masai 2
.1721 Kikuyu 1
.1752 AA 1
.1943 Luhya 1
.1953 Gambian 0
.1960 Luo 1
.1970 Nasioi 71
.1994 BantuKenya 1
.2014 Dinka.DG 2
.2027 Malawi_Tumbuka 1
.2033 Mende 1
.2033 Malawi_Yao 1
.2039 Yoruba 1
.2044 Mandenka 1
.2047 Mandenka.DG 1
.2051 Esan 1
.2058 Malawi_Ngoni 1
.2059 Malawi_Chewa 1
.2066 BantuSA 0
.2093 Namibia_Bantu_Herero 1
.2231 Australian 64
.2298 Papuan 64
.2314 Biaka 0
.2335 Khomani 0
.2586 Hadza1 4
.2626 Mbuti 0
.2799 Ju_hoan_North 0

Code for calculating FST with SmartPCA: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....269#post786269.

BTW I don't consider Saami or Udmurts to be Caucasoid, because if you count the undifferentiated Eurasian ancestry in ANE as partially Mongoloid, or if you exclude some of the most Caucasoid individuals as mixed, then Saami and Udmurts are about 1/3 Mongoloid. It's like saying that 1/3 SSA and 2/3 Caucasoid populations like Afars would be Caucasoid. Udmurts are probably closer to half Mongoloid and half Caucasoid than to pure Caucasoid, so it makes more sense to consider them mixed-race or Eurasian.

[Arzanene]

Screenshot_20210723-161015_Samsung Internet.jpg

Screenshot_20210723-161051_Samsung Internet.jpg

Screenshot_20210723-150124_Samsung Internet.jpg

Doing a hard breakdown on them.

They seem to be around 40-50% east Asian

And the other half is 50-60% North African with Ethiopian. Although of course the distances are high, if you want to break them down in relation to Old World populations then this is what they are.

North American Amerindians athaabaskans are most east Eurasian than the mesoamericans.

[KuakoVoice]

For there to be such large distances between Native Americans and Eurasian populations, one or more of three things has to be true.

1)The ancestors of Native Americans left Eurasia much longer than 15,000 years ago. Maybe 40,000 years.
2)Native Americans are descended from a diverged ghost population in Eurasia which was very distinct from any remaining now.
3)Native Americans underwent a severe bottleneck at some point causing them to diverge heavily.

Theres no evidence Amerindians came more than 20,000 years ago or so.40,000 years is more like Australoid divergence date.