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Thread: You get coincidence with travelers? (gypsies from northern Europe)

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    Default You get coincidence with travelers? (gypsies from northern Europe)

    http://www.newforestromanygypsytraveller.co.uk/dna.php

    You get coincidence with travelers?

    During our recent project we have managed to test the D.N.A of four of our local settled Gypsy Traveller community: for this we have used Ancestry.co.uk as we already have family trees on their website, which we have worked on over many years. We have been able to access the D.N.A. matches that link in with our Family Trees. Ancestry often has special offers on the cost of their D.N.A testing so we waited for these to come along first. Ancestry has a large data base of over six million users around the world and focuses on genetic links in order to help build family trees that give an insight into the ethnicity and migratory journeys ancestors may have taken thousands of years ago and more recently. Ancestry D.N.A testing covers Single Autosomal, Autosomal DNA cousin matching and Biogeographical ancestry analysis.

    The four community members whom we tested have family trees which include names such as Cooper, Ayres, Lamb, Doe, James, Pidgley, Smith, Sherred, Sheen and many others well known within the Gypsy Traveller Community. We choose these particularly four people as they didn’t appear to be closely related at the beginning of the project.

    All four people tested had a known history of ancestors living within the New Forest as part of the recognised settled Gypsy Traveller Community.

    Once we had received our D.N.A test results from Ancestry the first thing that we noticed is that all four D.N.A tests were D.N.A Matches with each other, but as yet we have not found all the links within our trees and this will be part of our ongoing research.

    We decided to compare the Ethnicity of the D.N.A tests between the four Gypsy Traveller community members and took the information from Ancestry and entered it into a bar graph using Excel. We were extremely disappointed to find after lots of setting up of the bar chart and meticulous entering of figures that the results to all four tests were identical, although we know that one community member has two Grandparents who are not from the community. We decided the best course of action was to upload the Ethnicity results as we are not from the Settled Gypsy Traveller Community or from this area, once again the results were identical and we can find no explanation as to why this would be the case.

    We then downloaded the RAW Data and uploaded it onto GEDmatch which is a third party free of cost website used for the analysis and comparison of raw autosomal DNA data, which has been processed by genetic genealogy testing companies such as Ancestry and My Heritage. This enabled us to not only compare our D.N.A samples with against each other, but also against further possible cousin connections whom are not on Ancestry, as well as run our data against thousands of other users that had uploaded their DNA from around the world. Using GEDmatch we have been able to compare autosomal, X chromosome and Y chromosome results and also to do further analysis using the One-to-One DNA Comparison and the X One-to-One DNA Comparison tools.

    One of the first areas of research we carried out using GEDmatch was to see if any of the four community members had parents that were related to each other. Our findings were:-
    Two tests informed us that these individual had parents that were related within several generations.
    One test informed us that the individual had parents related distantly.
    One test informed us that the individual’s parents were not related at all. Interestingly this was the individual who is known to have one pair of grandparents that are not from the local settled Gypsy Traveller Community.
    We were not surprised with these results as it is well understood that this community have stuck together over many generations and have married within their own community.

    When we looked at the community members D.N.A for Ethnicity results again: this time using GEDmatch we found the following:-

    These results showed significant differences in Ethnicity between the four individuals from the community, however all showed Asia which would be correct as Romany Gypsy Travellers are believed to have originally migrated from the northern Indian sub-continent around 1500. This Eurogenes K13 Admixture Test which we able to carry out through GEDmatch also shows a much higher percentage of Asian Ethnicity in all four DNA samples which is what we were originally expecting to find.









    The results above show the Autosomal DNA comparison between the four community members and has been carried out using the free service with GEDmatch.

    Using D.N.A samples has enabled us to confirm links as well as find many new links for our ongoing work with this Communities GED files (Family Trees), we have also been able to get to know many new people from all over the world who are looking for information regarding a possible link to the Gypsy Traveller community and who have found matches with our D.N.A samples. We also have a few people that unfortunately have unknown close relatives or have been adopted that are finding the information we hold helpful in the search for their family members.

    If you would like to compare your RAW D.N.A Data with our samples in GEDmatch the Kit details are as follows:-

    A115523
    A598437
    A681456
    A796236
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7449/
    E-V22 - E-BY7449 - E-BY7566 - E-FT155550
    According to oral family tradition E-FT155550 comes from a deserter of Napoleon's troops (1808-1813) who stayed in Spain and changed his surname.

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    The first one seems to get very little from India, the rest all get but very little.

    I don't get anything from East or South Asia in k13 that seems like a common denominator in them however how the rest of the values are possible if it is supposed to be such an isolated group when or how they have mixed with the rest of the population in their area ?

    They seem rather local or a group that isolates itself from the rest for reasons other than racial difference. Someone who knows the subject will clear me of doubts.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7449/
    E-V22 - E-BY7449 - E-BY7566 - E-FT155550
    According to oral family tradition E-FT155550 comes from a deserter of Napoleon's troops (1808-1813) who stayed in Spain and changed his surname.

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    I only get with the last kit

    A796236 (*Paul) [Migration - F2 - A]

    Minimum segment threshold size to be included in total = 200 SNPs
    Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM

    Chr B37 Start Pos'n B37 End Pos'n Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
    13 37,995,147 42,956,621 6.9 231

    Largest segment = 6.9 cM

    Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 6.9 cM (0.191 Pct)

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    I've been getting information and apparently they are not gypsies
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7449/
    E-V22 - E-BY7449 - E-BY7566 - E-FT155550
    According to oral family tradition E-FT155550 comes from a deserter of Napoleon's troops (1808-1813) who stayed in Spain and changed his surname.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallop View Post
    I've been getting information and apparently they are not gypsies
    I was thinking the same due the very low south asian component for the roma people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaditanian View Post
    I was thinking the same due the very low south asian component for the roma people
    Apparently the travelers from Ireland already existed 300 years before the gypsies arrived in Ireland for example. And these gypsies in the study do have little Asia (India), so where is the supposed hermeticism and social isolation as an ethnic group.

    I do not know if there is a study on the Spanish gypsies. If they have supposedly been so isolated, how is it possible to coincide with Europe?
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7449/
    E-V22 - E-BY7449 - E-BY7566 - E-FT155550
    According to oral family tradition E-FT155550 comes from a deserter of Napoleon's troops (1808-1813) who stayed in Spain and changed his surname.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallop View Post
    Apparently the travelers from Ireland already existed 300 years before the gypsies arrived in Ireland for example. And these gypsies in the study do have little Asia (India), so where is the supposed hermeticism and social isolation as an ethnic group.

    I do not know if there is a study on the Spanish gypsies. If they have supposedly been so isolated, how is it possible to coincide with Europe?

    Don't you think that the travellers are the same people that in Spain are the " Mercheros " instead of Gypsies?

    I have read some where, that the Mercheros are different ethnic group in Spain, but no ones know exactly their origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaditanian View Post
    Don't you think that the travellers are the same people that in Spain are the " Mercheros " instead of Gypsies?

    I have read some where, that the Mercheros are different ethnic group in Spain, but no ones know exactly their origins.
    It is most likely because obviously they are not going to come out of nowhere, surely the lighters could be a case similar to travelers who leave the same town for any sociological reason. It is sad that there is no longer a genetic work on the Spanish gypsies and the mercheros.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7449/
    E-V22 - E-BY7449 - E-BY7566 - E-FT155550
    According to oral family tradition E-FT155550 comes from a deserter of Napoleon's troops (1808-1813) who stayed in Spain and changed his surname.

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    Irish Travellers are completely Irish. They don't have any Roma ancestry. They are an indigenous Irish group that diverged from the Irish population through drift and consanguity.

    These kits don't appear to be Irish Traveller though.

    A115523

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 43.50
    2 Baltic 21.85
    3 West_Med 15.35
    4 East_Med 6.12
    5 West_Asian 5.43
    6 Red_Sea 2.22
    7 South_Asian 2.14
    8 Northeast_African 1.49


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 South_Dutch @ 2.926278
    2 West_German @ 3.640848
    3 French @ 7.681195
    4 Southeast_English @ 7.926311
    5 North_German @ 8.915006
    6 Southwest_English @ 9.433720
    7 Orcadian @ 9.826164
    8 Danish @ 10.089134
    9 North_Dutch @ 10.138279
    10 Austrian @ 10.834632
    11 Irish @ 10.850017
    12 West_Scottish @ 11.391233
    13 East_German @ 12.276030
    14 Norwegian @ 12.732788
    15 Swedish @ 13.348269
    16 Hungarian @ 15.968770
    17 Spanish_Cataluna @ 16.332603
    18 Spanish_Galicia @ 17.042633
    19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 17.394964
    20 Portuguese @ 17.507671

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% French +50% North_German @ 2.666961


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% North_German +25% Spanish_Galicia +25% West_German @ 1.996296


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 North_German + North_German + Spanish_Galicia + West_German @ 1.996296
    2 North_German + North_German + South_Dutch + Spanish_Galicia @ 2.040795
    3 Hungarian + Irish + Spanish_Galicia + West_Scottish @ 2.151836
    4 Hungarian + Irish + Irish + Spanish_Galicia @ 2.161981
    5 Danish + North_German + Spanish_Galicia + West_German @ 2.165607
    6 Hungarian + Irish + Irish + Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.210063
    7 Hungarian + Spanish_Galicia + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.227662
    8 Hungarian + Irish + Spanish_Extremadura + West_Scottish @ 2.229697
    9 Hungarian + Irish + Irish + Portuguese @ 2.239099
    10 North_Dutch + North_German + Spanish_Galicia + West_German @ 2.249163
    11 French + North_German + Spanish_Galicia + Swedish @ 2.256350
    12 Austrian + North_German + Spanish_Galicia + West_Scottish @ 2.257654
    13 Austrian + North_German + Spanish_Extremadura + West_Scottish @ 2.262524
    14 Hungarian + Irish + Portuguese + West_Scottish @ 2.265855
    15 North_German + Spanish_Extremadura + Swedish + West_German @ 2.271988
    16 Austrian + Danish + Irish + Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.279128
    17 Austrian + Irish + North_German + Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.287891
    18 Hungarian + Irish + Southwest_English + Spanish_Galicia @ 2.290785
    19 North_German + North_German + Portuguese + South_Dutch @ 2.295367
    20 Hungarian + Spanish_Extremadura + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.300691

    This one could possibly be. A598437

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 50.06
    2 Baltic 20.53
    3 West_Med 14.23
    4 East_Med 6.15
    5 West_Asian 3.79
    6 Red_Sea 1.95
    7 Amerindian 1.33


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Southeast_English @ 3.709147
    2 Southwest_English @ 4.760209
    3 Orcadian @ 6.204792
    4 South_Dutch @ 6.667014
    5 West_Scottish @ 6.810479
    6 Irish @ 7.143698
    7 North_Dutch @ 7.782233
    8 Danish @ 8.200653
    9 West_German @ 8.296001
    10 North_German @ 9.378186
    11 Norwegian @ 10.557951
    12 French @ 10.675717
    13 Swedish @ 12.932937
    14 Austrian @ 16.453516
    15 East_German @ 17.507923
    16 Spanish_Cataluna @ 18.192039
    17 North_Swedish @ 19.055958
    18 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 19.242790
    19 Southwest_French @ 19.719242
    20 Spanish_Galicia @ 19.872757

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% French +50% West_Scottish @ 3.324819


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% North_Dutch +25% Spanish_Murcia +25% West_Scottish @ 2.536920


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 North_Dutch + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.249144
    2 Danish + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.283145
    3 Norwegian + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.321895
    4 Danish + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.370499
    5 North_Dutch + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.375145
    6 Portuguese + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.416627
    7 North_Dutch + Portuguese + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.443556
    8 Norwegian + Southeast_English + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish @ 2.457326
    9 Irish + North_Dutch + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish @ 2.461120
    10 Danish + Portuguese + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.477980
    11 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish @ 2.482327
    12 Danish + Irish + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish @ 2.494337
    13 Orcadian + Portuguese + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.505666
    14 North_Dutch + Southeast_English + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + West_Scottish @ 2.517217
    15 Southeast_English + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.521442
    16 Portuguese + Southeast_English + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.521573
    17 Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.534995
    18 Orcadian + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.535168
    19 Norwegian + Southeast_English + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + West_Scottish @ 2.536227
    20 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish @ 2.536920

    A681456. This one Nope. I don't think any of these are Irish Travellers but possibly some admixed population.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 39.54
    2 Baltic 20.09
    3 West_Med 13.37
    4 East_Med 9.91
    5 West_Asian 6.43
    6 South_Asian 5.91
    7 Red_Sea 2.40
    8 Siberian 1.35


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 West_German @ 7.163840
    2 South_Dutch @ 8.204082
    3 French @ 9.011965
    4 Austrian @ 11.615117
    5 North_German @ 13.305059
    6 East_German @ 13.729365
    7 Southeast_English @ 13.765026
    8 Hungarian @ 14.739230
    9 Danish @ 14.968687
    10 North_Dutch @ 15.593724
    11 Orcadian @ 15.649443
    12 Southwest_English @ 15.669261
    13 Spanish_Cataluna @ 16.510555
    14 Irish @ 16.682924
    15 Spanish_Galicia @ 16.720268
    16 Portuguese @ 16.868179
    17 Serbian @ 16.937033
    18 West_Scottish @ 17.099239
    19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 17.685041
    20 Norwegian @ 17.963928

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Romanian +50% West_Scottish @ 6.988982


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Danish +25% East_Sicilian +25% South_Dutch @ 5.293278


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++
    1 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Danish + Danish @ 5.150342
    2 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Danish + Orcadian @ 5.258326
    3 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Danish + North_German @ 5.258814
    4 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Danish + Irish @ 5.280097
    5 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + North_German + Orcadian @ 5.290731
    6 Danish + Danish + East_Sicilian + South_Dutch @ 5.293278
    7 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + North_German + West_Scottish @ 5.299016
    8 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Irish + North_German @ 5.301974
    9 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Danish + West_Scottish @ 5.328138
    10 Ashkenazi + Danish + Irish + South_Dutch @ 5.364165
    11 Ashkenazi + Danish + South_Dutch + West_Scottish @ 5.369443
    12 Ashkenazi + Danish + Danish + South_Dutch @ 5.376767
    13 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Danish + Swedish @ 5.381126
    14 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Orcadian + Swedish @ 5.386905
    15 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.387074
    16 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Irish + Swedish @ 5.393199
    17 Algerian_Jewish + Danish + Danish + North_Dutch @ 5.403049
    18 Algerian_Jewish + North_German + North_German + West_Scottish @ 5.405686
    19 Danish + North_German + South_Dutch + West_Sicilian @ 5.413529
    20 Danish + Danish + French + Greek_Thessaly @ 5.415102

    A796236

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 44.63
    2 Baltic 20.30
    3 West_Med 13.79
    4 West_Asian 8.13
    5 East_Med 7.62
    6 South_Asian 3.18


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 West_German @ 4.078482
    2 South_Dutch @ 4.382389
    3 Southeast_English @ 8.307292
    4 French @ 8.672152
    5 North_German @ 9.247963
    6 Southwest_English @ 10.060742
    7 Orcadian @ 10.227403
    8 Danish @ 10.235866
    9 North_Dutch @ 10.596281
    10 Irish @ 11.018946
    11 West_Scottish @ 11.461241
    12 Austrian @ 12.560819
    13 Norwegian @ 13.264743
    14 East_German @ 14.318634
    15 Swedish @ 14.397117
    16 Spanish_Cataluna @ 16.956793
    17 Hungarian @ 17.180510
    18 Spanish_Galicia @ 18.466215
    19 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 18.514116
    20 Portuguese @ 18.530945

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% South_Dutch +50% West_German @ 4.038773


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +25% Italian_Abruzzo +25% Orcadian @ 3.118676


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Danish + Italian_Abruzzo + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 2.981287
    2 Danish + Irish + Italian_Abruzzo + West_Scottish @ 2.997459
    3 Danish + Irish + Irish + Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.056782
    4 Danish + Italian_Abruzzo + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 3.059146
    5 Danish + Irish + Italian_Abruzzo + Orcadian @ 3.101215
    6 Irish + Italian_Abruzzo + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 3.113243
    7 Irish + Irish + Italian_Abruzzo + Orcadian @ 3.118676
    8 Irish + Italian_Abruzzo + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 3.147446
    9 Italian_Abruzzo + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 3.153921
    10 Italian_Abruzzo + Orcadian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.172476
    11 Greek_Thessaly + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.177503
    12 Irish + Irish + Italian_Abruzzo + West_Scottish @ 3.187538
    13 Irish + Irish + Irish + Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.197928
    14 Greek_Thessaly + Irish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.217665
    15 Irish + Italian_Abruzzo + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.226946
    16 Italian_Abruzzo + Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.240510
    17 Danish + Italian_Abruzzo + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 3.247512
    18 Danish + Danish + Italian_Abruzzo + West_Scottish @ 3.251540
    19 Irish + Italian_Abruzzo + Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 3.270518
    20 Italian_Abruzzo + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 3.274031

    Not sure what they are but they aren't Irish Travellers. They have definite admixture in their results and could have some Roma ancestry.

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    E-BY7449-E-BY7566
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    It would be interesting to find Traveler Gedmatch kits to compare with these
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY7449/
    E-V22 - E-BY7449 - E-BY7566 - E-FT155550
    According to oral family tradition E-FT155550 comes from a deserter of Napoleon's troops (1808-1813) who stayed in Spain and changed his surname.

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