Dorian Invasion Debunked!?

[Dianatomia]

There was no massive migration of external people into Greece
Epiros has been part of Greece from the beginning

Maybe there was some difference in culture and social organisation,Epirotes might have been more pastoralist and following archaic customs vs wealthier Acheans
and other Greeks living in Southern regions and Islands but the Greek character of the region you can see by looking at monuments such as Dodona alone





They lived in Greece all the regions they lived where Hellenic or Greek back then there was no South Albanian
also there is no evidence Dorians lived exclusivly in this area(Epiros) and nowhere else in Greece or could not have lived before somewhere further
South too before they went up North





Yeah exactly



Yes but they didn't realy brought it into Greece because they were from Greece as were the Mycanaeans

I will throw my cards on the table. I don't believe Epirots were genetically identical to the Mycenaeans. Different people were Hellenized by the proto-Greek speakers. The natives in the South of Greece could have been very Minoan-like. I don't believe the Epirots were very Minoan-like. At least, on a microscopic level they were different. At most, they were generally different people altogether. Dorians would have been the result of proto-Greeks who absorbed the people inhabiting the Northern parts of Ancient Greece, while Mycenaeans are the result of proto-Greeks who absorbed the Minoans in the South.

When the Dorians spread through the whole of Greece, they brought more Steppe into the South. On top of that, they brought other elements which were to be found in the northern parts of Greece. I.e. Epirus, Thessaly etc. Furthermore, the Northern most Dorians settled in Macedonia, far from the Minoan Greek world. Surrounded by non-Greek tribes further North, quite isolated, they had considerably less interaction with the Minoan type Mycenaean Greeks, so it took these Dorians more time and effort to be acknowledged as equals in the Greek world.

[Tauromachos]

I will throw my cards on the table. I don't believe Epirots were genetically identical to the Mycenaeans

I don't believe it neither but i think chances are high that they were not much different to them.

Or to say it this way modern Epirots would be rather more different to Southern Greeks lets say
Greek Islander than the Ancient ones would be because in Mainland Greece after the additional
Medieval influxes from Slavs and others it can not realy be the other way around
The Sarno paper even states that before the additional medieval input in Mainland Greece
Mainland Greeks and Islanders would not be much different at all and all be in the same large cluster
together with South Italians

. Different people were Hellenized by the proto-Greek speakers. The natives in the South of Greece could have been very Minoan-like. I don't believe the Epirots were very Minoan-like.

I don't believe that Ancient Epirots would have been very Slavic or Balkan like(in the modern sense) neither
Its not unlikely that they were more Minoan like than Epirotes today

Keep in mind that a modern Epirote still scores a good deal of Italian or South Italian like things

At least, on a microscopic level they were different. At most, they were generally different people

Yes on a microscopic level Austrians and Bavarians are different too

altogether. Dorians would have been the result of proto-Greeks who absorbed the people inhabiting the Northern parts of Ancient Greece, while Mycenaeans are the result of proto-Greeks who absorbed the Minoans in the South.

In my personal point of view Dorians would been the result of Mycanaeans absorbing people in the Northern parts of Ancient Greece

This is more or less what Return of the Heraclidae suggests and it is more plausible
or sound to me than other versions about the origin or nature of the Dorians

Furthermore, the Northern most Dorians settled in Macedonia, far from the Minoan Greek world.

Lol Northernmost.. you are obsessed with this

Let me tell you that the Mycanaean culture and pottery reached till Macedonia
Ancient Macedonians had much more to do with Mycanaeans than they had to do with Slavs or Central
Europeans but believe whatever you want

[Dianatomia]

I don't believe it neither but i think chances are high that they were not much different to them.

Or to say it this way modern Epirots would be rather more different to Southern Greeks lets say
Greek Islander than the Ancient ones would be because in Mainland Greece after the additional
Medieval influxes from Slavs and others it can not realy be the other way around

No, not quite, because we are comparing populations in the early Bronze Age. That's when they were different. After that, since the proto-Greeks absorbed them, they were all part of the same cultural mainframe. What followed then was population movements, migrations, perhaps invasions. In the Iron Age, Classical Age, also the Hellenistic Age. And then, the modern Greeks would have had a couple of thousand years extra to intermix. How many Greek ancestors went to the big cities during centuries? Athens, Pergamon, Alexandria, Constantinople. And how many Greek ancestors came to settle in villages again or on islands after these cities fell or were depopulated? This is why the mainland Greeks are not all too different from the islanders.

To think that all Greeks were biologically stagnant since the Bronze Age, then came some Slavs in medieval times and pulled the mainlanders a little bit away from the islanders is way too simplistic. Basing our knowledge of ancient Greeks on four Mycenaeans is like saying there is no extra terrestrial life because we didn't find any in our solar system. I think it is fair to assume that pre-Greeks, North to South, could have been considerably different from each other. Just like the bronze age Illyrian who is found to be similar to North Italians. While South Illyrians could have been different.

[Tauromachos]

To think that all Greeks were biologically stagnant since the Bronze Age, then came some Slavs in medieval times and pulled the mainlanders a little bit away from the islanders is way too simplistic. Basing our knowledge of ancient Greeks on four Mycenaeans is like saying there is no extra terrestrial life because we didn't find any in our solar system. I think it is fair to assume that pre-Greeks, North to South, could have been considerably different from each other. Just like the bronze age Illyrian who is found to be similar to North Italians. While South Illyrians could have been different.

Yes Greek in different regions would have been different just as they are today but my view is that their differences were less than those of Greeks today.

Maybe to you this seems a contradiction but i wouldn't disagree with that the Dorians could have been more Northshifted than other people of Ancient Greece and that they had some additional Steppe yet at the same time you and other could be surprised but i personally wouldn't be actualy if the real Ancient Dorians would turn out to be more South shifted with less Steppe affinity and more Med ancestry than todays average Mainland Greeks not more than Islanders or South Italians but more than modern Epirotes or Albanians,it wouldn't surprise me.



Note i acknowledge differences between different groups of Greeks but i don't think they were totally unrelated and became similar only by mixing
to give an example consider the latest discoveries about Mycanaean and Minoan genetics.

Mycanaean and Minoans were also thought by most people to have been very different genetically but it turned out that they had most ancestry in common but Mycanaean differed in that they have some additional inputs which were absent in Minoans

[Dianatomia]

Yes Greek in different regions would have been different just as they are today but my view is that their differences were less than those of Greeks today.

Maybe to you this seems a contradiction but i wouldn't disagree with that the Dorians could have been more Northshifted than other people of Ancient Greece and that they had some additional Steppe yet at the same time you and other could be surprised but i personally wouldn't be actualy if the real Ancient Dorians would turn out to be more South shifted with less Steppe affinity and more Med ancestry than todays average Mainland Greeks not more than Islanders or South Italians but more than modern Epirotes or Albanians,it wouldn't surprise me.



Note i acknowledge differences between different groups of Greeks but i don't think they were totally unrelated and became similar only by mixing
to give an example consider the latest discoveries about Mycanaean and Minoan genetics.

Mycanaean and Minoans were also thought by most people to have been very different genetically but it turned out that they had most ancestry in common but Mycanaean differed in that they have some additional inputs which were absent in Minoans

I would say that the Ancient Greeks overall during the Classical Era were more Southern shifted than Greeks today, simply because Mycenaean ancestry is more prevalent in them. But I would be more careful to make the same judgement on the Ancient Dorians. There could have been groups in Ancient Greece which, at one point of time, were more Northern shifted than modern Greeks. I am not speaking of the Dorians only. Take the Trojans for example. They were likely of Dardanian (Thracian) origin. The Thracians could have been more Northern shifted compared to modern Greeks. After Western Anatolia was incorporated into the Classical Greek world, these Dardanians would have mixed with Mycenaeans (among others) and became Ionian Greeks. Like the Dardanians, other Balkanic groups, like Phrygians and Dorians mixed with Mycenaeans and pulled the Classical Greeks more North compared to the Mycenaeans. Well, at the very least, they were more Balkanic for sure.

[Tauromachos]

I would say that the Ancient Greeks overall during the Classical Era were more Southern shifted than Greeks today, simply because Mycenaean ancestry is more prevalent in them. But I would be more careful to make the same judgement on the Ancient Dorians.

I'm not carefull .
Excluding the Dorians from the Classical Greeks, is an oxymoron, the classical Greeks(Hellenes) were branched into 4 major tribal
groups of which the Dorians were one.
The Dorians may have likely been more Northshifted than the Acheans who were the Greeks in South Peloponnese who went to Cyprus before the arrival of the Dorians but i don't think Dorians were more Northshifted than todays Mainland Greeks as most things recently discovered in particular genetics suggest that they were not.

There could have been groups in Ancient Greece which, at one point of time, were more Northern shifted than modern Greeks. I am not speaking of the Dorians only.

Yes there were Scythians,Celts ect in Greece who sometimes assimilated and were hellenized the difference was that the Dorians were Hellenic along with
Ionians and Aeolians and that these other groups were not hellenic and regarded as foreigners(barbarians)

Take the Trojans for example. They were likely of Dardanian (Thracian) origin. The Thracians could have been more Northern shifted compared to modern Greeks. After Western Anatolia was incorporated into the Classical Greek world, these Dardanians would have mixed with Mycenaeans (among others) and became Ionian Greeks.

The Trojans as you know were in Western Turkey but its said after the Trojan war some leader of them Enneas moved with them to Italy and they took part in the Roman Ethnogenesis.
About Ionians Greeks having to do anything with Dardanians i didn't knew
If they were already part Dardanian themselves how different could they have been from Dorians

Like the Dardanians, other Balkanic groups, like Phrygians and Dorians mixed with Mycenaeans and pulled the Classical Greeks more North compared to the Mycenaeans. Well, at the very least, they were more Balkanic for sure.

As i said i wouldn't think of the Dorians as a foreign Balkanic group
If anything the Dorians were the result of Mycanaeans mixing with some foreign Balkanic such as you claimed the Ionians to be
In Greek mythology Dorians,Ionians,Achaeans and so on trace their origins to a common ancestors Hellen and therefore are called Hellenes
as opposed to other Barbarian people such as Illyrians,Paononians,Celts,Scythians,Persians or Egyptian which they regarded as foreigners
Understood?
This doesn't mean Dorians,Ionians and so on must have been identical in terms of genetics or phenotype but that they much certainly came
from a common ancestral source or origin as also the tongues/dialects they spoke and Mycanaean has been deciphered to be the earliest Greek tongue known till now thus a predecessor of Doric,Ionic ect

[Dianatomia]

I'm not carefull .
Excluding the Dorians from the Classical Greeks, is an oxymoron, the classical Greeks(Hellenes) were branched into 4 major tribal
groups of which the Dorians were one.
The Dorians may have likely been more Northshifted than the Acheans who were the Greeks in South Peloponnese who went to Cyprus before the arrival of the Dorians but i don't think Dorians were more Northshifted than todays Mainland Greeks as most things recently discovered in particular genetics suggest that they were not.



Yes there were Scythians,Celts ect in Greece who sometimes assimilated and were hellenized the difference was that the Dorians were Hellenic along with
Ionians and Aeolians and that these other groups were not hellenic and regarded as foreigners(barbarians)




The Trojans as you know were in Western Turkey but its said after the Trojan war some leader of them Enneas moved with them to Italy and they took part in the Roman Ethnogenesis.
About Ionians Greeks having to do anything with Dardanians i didn't knew
If they were already part Dardanian themselves how different could they have been from Dorians



As i said i wouldn't think of the Dorians as a foreign Balkanic group
If anything the Dorians were the result of Mycanaeans mixing with some foreign Balkanic such as you claimed the Ionians to be
In Greek mythology Dorians,Ionians,Achaeans and so on trace their origins to a common ancestors Hellen and therefore are called Hellenes
as opposed to other Barbarian people such as Illyrians,Paononians,Celts,Scythians,Persians or Egyptian which they regarded as foreigners
Understood?
This doesn't mean Dorians,Ionians and so on must have been identical in terms of genetics or phenotype but that they much certainly came
from a common ancestral source or origin as also the tongues/dialects they spoke and Mycanaean has been deciphered to be the earliest Greek tongue known till now thus a predecessor of Doric,Ionic ect

Never said that the Dorians were a non-Greek ethnic group. At least, all Greek tribes had the same proto-Greek ancestors. But different tribes could have been absorbed. In that respect, it is only a matter of arbitrary coincidence that Dardanians were no absorbed in the middle Bronze Age, but rather in the late Bronze Age. Or Iron Age. The point being is the first Greek speakers started absorbing an increasing amount of people around the Aegean. Culminating into something that we call Ancient Greeks. People get too much hung up on these four tribes. But I believe the Ancient Greeks (Classical era) were more than that. They were more than Mycenaeans. Roughly speaking, they had more paleo-Balkan and Anatolian (especially the Ionians) admixture .

[-Scar-]

Dorian invasion as a sudden massive violent intrusion of foreign Northern people such as the Slavic invasions in the Balkans
or Germanic in Italy did much likely not happen.
Everything known so far contradicts that, Archeology,Greek Mythology and genetics.

The Dorians might have fought with other Greek people but that was more a sort of internal rivalry between different groups or clans,castes of Greeks.
Most facts in particular genetics bespeak to that the Dorians were clearly Greek and closely related to other Greek people as it is also pointed
out in Ancient Greek mythology.

Dorians might have been a sub-group of Myceaneans, or maybe not Myceaneans just very Myceanean-like genetically, or maybe the Bronze Age collapse had nothing to do with Dorians. There many speculations. We need some Y-DNA samples to be sure, autosomally it's highly unlikely Classical Greeks to have differed from Myceaneans.

[FountainOfSalmacis]

We all learn something wrong in school. As time goes by, we all learn more through research and new archaeological facts.

We can unequivocally state that the Dorians were NOT a Nordic people and that they were Greeks from Epirus and Macedonia.

Of course they were Greek, but it is posible that they had more steppe ancestry than the 5-15% of the Myceneans. Could be.

[-Scar-]

I would say that the Ancient Greeks overall during the Classical Era were more Southern shifted than Greeks today, simply because Mycenaean ancestry is more prevalent in them. But I would be more careful to make the same judgement on the Ancient Dorians. There could have been groups in Ancient Greece which, at one point of time, were more Northern shifted than modern Greeks. I am not speaking of the Dorians only. Take the Trojans for example. They were likely of Dardanian (Thracian) origin. The Thracians could have been more Northern shifted compared to modern Greeks. After Western Anatolia was incorporated into the Classical Greek world, these Dardanians would have mixed with Mycenaeans (among others) and became Ionian Greeks. Like the Dardanians, other Balkanic groups, like Phrygians and Dorians mixed with Mycenaeans and pulled the Classical Greeks more North compared to the Mycenaeans. Well, at the very least, they were more Balkanic for sure.

We have Bronze Age samples from Moldova (much northern gheographically than Thracians) and they plot like Mainland Greeks. We have one Thracian sample and they are quite similar to Myceaneans but have some additional northern alleles.