Dorian Invasion Debunked!?

[Tauromachos]

You really hate Slavs, don't you. Most Slavs weren't violent invaders. The area was depopulated to a significant degree as a result of battles and plagues. Slavs were invited as settlers. There was some violence like with any large scale migration. It was probably similar to the Dorian migration in that manner (although Dorians are less foreign compared to Slavs, which is the main difference)

No i don't hate them your remark is totally out of context why you follow me and make dumb claims about my personality
Whats your buisness meddling whom i hate or if i hate anyone
You know me personally?

I named the Slavic migration (wether it was an invasion or not) into the Balkan as one example and the Gothic into Spain or
the Germanic into Italy as two other example of what i think the Doric migration/invasion was not like because the Dorians weren't foreign to Greece.

Now if you don't like the Slavic comparison choose one out of the other two
What does it have to do with hating Slavs

Dorians are less foreign compared to Slavs

Hmm that was basicly my point

[Epirus DNA]

My guess is there was some sort of internal collapse (relating to the climate i.e. earthquakes/drought) and it made it easy for the Dorians to mass settle after.

Regarding Dorians being invaders, probably not like Dr. Cline said. But its a bit of a nitpick IMO. The fact is there was a large scale migration and that's what mainly matters.

Large scale migration or war? The Mycenaeans were far more sophisticated in their art, pottery, culture, etc. If the Dorians migrated south, it would make sense that the Mycenaeans' Hellenic culture would have prevailed... but that's not what happened. The Doric Hellenic culture and dialect prevailed.

There either had to have been some sort of internal collapse like you said, (relating to the climate i.e. earthquakes/drought) that made it easy for the Dorians to mass settle after... OR there was a war/invasion OR... maybe (and I think most likely) a mixture of both.

[Tauromachos]

Large scale migration or war? The Mycenaeans were far more sophisticated in their art, pottery, culture, etc. If the Dorians migrated south, it would make sense that the Mycenaeans' Hellenic culture would have prevailed... but that's not what happened. The Doric Hellenic culture and dialect prevailed.

Not all customs of Mycanaeans were destroyed or changed by the Dorians actually alot of customs were continued by the Dorians
Just the Mycanaean civilzation declined either with or without the contribution of the Dorians but Classical Civilization of the
Greek city states rose after

[Dr_Maul]

Most likely, it was a mix of them establishing a hierarchical position via war + gradual migration resulting in assimilation, similar to how Arabic society overtook local ones in North Africa, Egypt and the levant

[Epirus DNA]

Not all customs of Mycanaeans were destroyed or changed by the Dorians actually alot of customs were continued by the Dorians
Just the Mycanaean civilzation declined either with or without the contribution of the Dorians but Classical Civilization of the
Greek city states rose after

Can't we assume that those customs were already inheritly shared Hellenic customs as they were both Hellenic regions and related Greek tribes?

What do you think about Cline's alternate theory that the Mycenaean collapse was an invasion from the 'sea people' or the East?

[Mingle]

Large scale migration or war? The Mycenaeans were far more sophisticated in their art, pottery, culture, etc. If the Dorians migrated south, it would make sense that the Mycenaeans' Hellenic culture would have prevailed... but that's not what happened. The Doric Hellenic culture and dialect prevailed.

There either had to have been some sort of internal collapse like you said, (relating to the climate i.e. earthquakes/drought) that made it easy for the Dorians to mass settle after... OR there was a war/invasion OR... maybe (and I think most likely) a mixture of both.

I think it was an internal collapse caused by climate since Dr. Cline says there isn't an evidence for an invasion. If it was an internal civil war as opposed to natural disasters, it would have probably been difficult to distinguish between an invasion and a war based on archaeological evidence. Since Dr. Cline seems confident that there was no invasion, I'm guessing the main role wasn't relating to a war.

[Tauromachos]

Can't we assume that those customs were already inheritly shared Hellenic customs as they were both Hellenic regions and related Greek tribes?

Both,there would have been some primitive customs common to all Greeks but the Dorians continued some customs
of their Mycanaeans forerunners.

What do you think about Cline's alternate theory that the Mycenaean collapse was an invasion from the sea or the West?

I don't know about Clines theory i have read at certain times that some people link the Dorians to the so called Sea people.

Well there is a vague relation between Greeks and Sea people

The Mycanaeans themselves are sometimes held responsible for the collapse of the Minoan civilization which took place earlier than the
Mycanaean one

[Tauromachos]

Yes, I agree. They were Greeks, not a foreign Northern people. However, it was an invasion nonetheless. Not a massive invasion, but a series of migrations, wars, and battles. The evidence is clearly laid out by N. G. L. Hammond.

The basic thing is if you talk about one Greek tribe conquering another Greek tribe in some particular region its hardly an invasion comparable to the Barbaric invasions into Italy during the late Roman or any other similar event

Its realy not the same thing

Greeks would go at war and conquer each other even during the classical ages one Poleis would conquer another Poleis

For example when Spartans launched the Messinian war to conquer the neighbouring Messinians to get their fertile lands this was long after the so called Dorian invasion.

The latest Greek who conquered all the other Greeks but in turn also unified them was Alexander the Great.
Alexander was in fact Dorian lol but the only Greeks who refused to join Alexander in his conquest against Persia,the Spartans were
Dorians too lol

[Kamal900]

The basic thing is if you talk about one Greek tribe conquering another Greek tribe in some particular region its hardly an invasion comparable to the Barbaric invasions into Italy during the late Roman or any other similar event

Its realy not the same thing

Greeks would go at war and conquer each other even during the classical ages one Poleis would conquer another Poleis

For example when Spartans launched the Messinian war to conquer the neighbouring Messinians to get their fertile lands this was long after the so called Dorian invasion.

The latest Greek who conquered all the other Greeks but in turn also unified them was Alexander the Great.
Alexander was in fact Dorian lol but the only Greeks who refused to join Alexander in his conquest against Persia,the Spartans were
Dorians too lol

Yes, you're right on that. The ancient Macedonians spoke a Northern variant of the Doric Greek dialect similar to the ancient Spartans according to the recent archaeological findings in Pella, Greece.

[Epirus DNA]

The basic thing is if you talk about one Greek tribe conquering another Greek tribe in some particular region its hardly an invasion comparable to the Barbaric invasions into Italy during the late Roman or any other similar event

Its realy not the same thing

Greeks would go at war and conquer each other even during the classical ages one Poleis would conquer another Poleis

For example when Spartans launched the Messinian war to conquer the neighbouring Messinians to get their fertile lands this was long after the so called Dorian invasion.

The latest Greek who conquered all the other Greeks but in turn also unified them was Alexander the Great.
Alexander was in fact Dorian lol but the only Greeks who refused to join Alexander in his conquest against Persia,the Spartans were
Dorians too lol

Do you consider the Trojans as Greeks?
Would you consider the Trojan War as an invasion?