Árpád-house, the Ugro-Iranian dynasty

[Blondie]

I just wanted to say, I would welcome a more comprehensive genetic test about the origin of the common people, the Hungarian nation. A genetic test which would include every region of the country and many other outside areas that no longer belong to Hungary (today's Slovakia, Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, Croatia, etc.) because, as we know, the place of origin of the leaders does not justify the origin of the common people, or at least the majority of the nation.

Perhaps some genetic research has already been done on this?

This is the complete paternal line data base of hungarians from the whole Carpathian Basin:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170302...frame=yresults

[kundur]

Turul Karom has already wrote everything about it, but do you know why ottomans and germans have different reputation in Hungary? Because the ottomans destroyed complete hungarian cities, villages, this a map of it:



There were such areas (in red) where 90% of buildings were destroyed. Another this is the demography catastrophe. Before the ottomans the population of Carpathian Basin was 70-80% hungarian:



After the ottomans this number was only 35%:



So ottomans never brought here anything only destruction, mass killings and mosques.

Austrians did many sins (opression, germanization), but it's not on same level with ottomans, Habsburgs didn't commited complete genocide against hungarians. And later the german settlers helped to rebuilt Hungary after ottomans for example they brought te newest agricultural methods. What you see in Hungary today for example the Parlament, the National Theater, the National Museum, the famous bridges in Budapest, the complete hungarian railway were all bulit in Habsburg times. So although Habsburgs did bad things they also did many good things, unlike ottomans who did much worse things and didn't do any good thing.

And turks are more religious muslims than hungarians are religious christians, all churches are empty in Hungary, nobody goes there only some old man. I hope Böri you don't do another account, you already have 10-15 banned acc.

You are German and it is interesting how you also have an authority over Hungarians here. It was one of the elements that led me to think that Hungarians are low profile in their relation with Austro-Bavarians. You guys act like you are kind of Civilized Spanish Conquistador while Hungarians have a Quechua status, the colonist and colonized.
Hungary is led by a Catholic sharia proponent leader. Turkey is a secular state where state sponsor the building of churches.

[Blondie]

Hungary is led by a Catholic sharia proponent leader. Turkey is a secular state where state sponsor the building of churches.

No, Turkey has neo ottoman policy, the peoples are more religious by far, Turkey built tons of mosques in Europe because radical islamist Erdogan want to islamize this continent, Turkey want to reconverting Hagia Sophia into a mosque again:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/...135637861.html

[Blondie]

They like us and some which we saved and loved ,hate us.

You saved hungarians from who? Hungary was a strong and independent state before the ottoman invasion. What are you talking about?

[Universe]

In Turkey, the Turks broke the taboo and make videos on how old Turks fought Arab armies in power struggles over Iranian city states in Central Asia while Turks being Tengri religion followers. How the direct ancestors of the Turks from Turkey fought Umayyad forces with Turgesh etc. And videos are made by Turks who are obviously Muslim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DORh6qifSfc

However Hungarians still have a long way to go. The Hungarian state looks like an Austro-Bavarian satellite state to this day, ruled by a guy who exclusively promotes a Catholic identity and a sharia state. Worse than Erdogan (this guy inaugurated an Assyrian church in Istanbul).

So much so that Hungarians do not promote all fights of Arpad to begin with.
How is it perceived in Hungary that Arpad himself wiped out a whole Bavarian army?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHUSCs4Nacg
Is it taboo to refer to such battles in Hungary, not risking to offend fellow Austrians?

We can conclude that the Turks are freer in their mind than Hungarians since Turks can criticize openly the Arabs and Islamic religion and even the Ottoman history. Yet, we hardly ever see any Hungarian daring to criticize Catholic faith or the Habsburgs or the Austro-Bavarian people.

Viktor Orbán is a calvinist. The pastor that executed his and his children's wedding ceremonies was a methodist. There's no particular emphasis on catholicism in Hungary. The government also donated money to non-catholic middle eastern christians.

Hungarians can be of different faiths: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Hungary. I'm a lutheran myself.

[Bender1999]

You saved hungarians from who? Hungary was a strong and independent state before the ottoman invasion. What are you talking about?

No, i meant others. Don’t pick up a sentece and claim nonsense out of context.

I am out here. I dont wanna discuss with this racist ***, who praised the genocide on uyghurs and wanted to do the same in europe. A really subhuman attitude...

[Blondie]

No, i meant others. Don’t pick up a sentece and claim nonsense out of context.

You are turkish, why don't you go back to Turkey? You have no place in Germany you ottoman lover.

[Blondie]

I dont wanna discuss with this racist ***,

Why am I racist? In Europe we don't need such peoples like you who glorify the islamist Ottoman Empire who did many crimes against europeans. Glorify them at home in Turkey but not here. What would you say if i would go to Turkey to live and i would spread anti turkish things everywhere? It would be okay to you? Or you would be racist if you wouldn't like that? If you want to live in Europe then take the european identity, values and everything, otherwise you have no place here.

[Universe]

From the steppes of Khazaria, to the plains of Hungary.

Budapest, Hungary – A new study conducted by online genealogy platform MyHeritage in conjunction with the Institute for Jewish Policy Research has revealed that the country with the highest proportion of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry after Israel is Hungary, and not the United States as was previously believed.

Myheritage's ashkenazi detection is bullshit, not trustworthy at all.

[Kaspias]

I understand; at least, I hope that I understand.

This is a complex topic, and I very much enjoy talking about it with you because it helps to share perspectives. You are an intellectual poster, and I have great respect for those who properly use their intellectualism to communicate. You can see I don’t post much on TA, or this many words, unless I mean to do so in good faith. I would ask of course that you read it all, but I know that you will. I thought a lot about how to say this today in English.

I have taken your advice, and I have re-read your long post a few times again. I will attempt to point out what I was saying, and I will comment on your longer post in parts. I will also show the continuity between my posts so that the connection is more clear. Each paragraph addresses your points then all follows a personal statement and a bit more about Hungary.

Hungary conquered a homeland as well. There are many myths and legends about it, from inheriting a crown from the Pope for a descendant of Attila in exchange for not sacking Rome, to being led to the area by the Turul bird and the dream of Emese. So who is responsible for displacing who? For all of history, people displace one another. Every animal does this; humans are not different from this rule. It is simply our means of justifying the land-taking that changes with culture, religion, resources, and ethnicity.

The most beautiful thing is that yes, the Turks ended the Ottoman Imperial system themselves, but as is for most things from the eyes of the West (not counting Hungarians), people only care about the narrative that “Ottomans bad.” This is an unfortunate reality. Hungary has always supported the collaboration and ascension of Turkey and the EU, but please understand that on a personal level, I greatly dislike the EU and see it as another attempt at a Western Empire, but this time much more sinister than just killing someone outright. It is a death with a slow kiss, and a promise of many breads and circuses if you are a good boy and lay down.

Turkey has been a place of scientific innovation, which is displayed by the scientists on its currency. Kaspias, do not get mad when people speak with two mouths about secular praises and “backwards” Turks. These are bad-faith LARPers who have nothing to offer because they are fixated on their own definitions of what their tribe is and that tribal mentality is cemented. They are completely westernized in the first place, and would therefore do better to look at what is happening in their nation within their own locus of control since they feel only hypocrisy towards Turks of Anatolia.

No groups are pure angels. We are all merely tribes. People who do not see that we are tribes with ultimately primitive tribal understandings of numbers, members, and interests are wistful needlessly; their policies of pure internationalism and unrestrained globalism will simply be turned on them in-turn as there will be no culture or ethnic group (tribe) to rally behind. They will be placed into the trashbin of history to forever be a footnote in the pages.

When I said “the average Anatolian Turk man and woman suffers today and now must carry the historical burdens of the Ottoman Empire deeds when most of the European invasions were led by European/Balkan Ottoman subjects and Pashas,” I did not mean that the Balkan population were somehow the perpetrators of every clichéd evil act upon hapless western (and westernized) nations.

Cooperating with the Ottomans was seen by many as treasonous, especially the Catholic western nations who were galvanized by the Pope. Even though the Ottomans maintained a degree of religious tolerance, you are not a naive man. You understand how the west during this time will not give credit to the Ottomans; to the western Empires, these Balkan bodies were people who should be paying THEM. Serving the THEIR levied armies. Serving in THEIR courts. Making THEM money. What do they gain by illustrating even a hint of cooperation in the Islamic Ottoman Empire? If there is one thing about Empires that is true, is that even if they have internal cooperation for a time, two Empires rarely cooperate with one another for long, if at all.

That’s the tragedy when I said in the first post that you quoted: “All of the blood and tears and suffering of the average Turkic man and woman for the "glory" of an Empire that would spit them out if it meant becoming better.” I saw the same thing happen to Hungarians for hundreds of years. There was no benefit in the long-term because all Empires promise the falsehood to the people that through the glory of the Empire, we are able to transcend our primitive tribal ways. However, tribalism is the core of human interaction, and this is usually a lie that the elites of Empires know is not a long-term possibility, but they will use all of the beautiful dreams and hopes and blood of its various ethnic groups (eventually, even the founders) who buy into the promise to sustain itself.

There was debate of what would happen to the minority groups in Hungary once it became free, especially after the 1848 revolution. Some debated that “Magyarization” was needed, which is the exact evil that was forced onto Hungarians by Germanics and other westerners. The idea was to take as many people possible and assimilate them so that once free, Hungary could be stronger as a European power and keep larger borders. But this clearly never happened; I don’t support this policy. Ethnic groups who fought against the Hapsburg Empire should have the rights to ALL be free.

Now what I will say is a more personal opinion than a generalized observation of history and human behavior and their analysis. In all honesty, I don’t feel as much pride about these Hapsburg times. Hungary didn’t prosper well. All of Hungarian treasure, blood, and hopes were spilled for largely pointless causes that didn’t end up benefiting the Hungarians in any measurable way. At best, it helped some small number of nobles gain favor in their attempts to intermarry into Western Hapsburg or Frankish royalty. Not all Hungarians might agree with me and this possibly uncomfortable truth, but it is truth nonetheless. In fact, all of the politicking and negotiating and backstabbing by the aristocrats who were disloyal to their fellow Magyar only saw Hungary become more carved up as the final “reward” after the Treaty of Trianon after defeat in WW1. We have throughout history been very “alone” and needed to re-win our home time and time again with blood and iron and death; an endless honfoglalás.

Read from our national anthem:

Though in caves pursued he lie,
Even then he fears attacks.
Coming forth the land to spy,
Even a home he finds he lacks.
Mountain, valley – go where he would,
Grief and sorrow all the same –
Underneath is a sea of blood,
While above is a sea of flame.'

Former forts are ruins now,
Joy and pleasure never found,
Only groans and sighs, I trow,
In its limits now unbound.

But no freedom's flowers return
From the spilled blood of the dead,
And the tears of slavery burn,
Which the eyes of orphans shed.

Pity, God, the Magyar, then,
Long by waves of danger tossed;
Help them by Thy strong hand when
They on grief's sea may be lost.
Fate, on for so long did frown,
Bring him happy times and ways;
Atoning sorrow hath weighed down
All the sins of all his days.

Just like the Balkan Turks, Hungarians for a long time had no home, and those who assimilated into Hungarian families by marrying and having children with ethnic Hungarian men and women only inherited the landlessness and burdens. I see the similarities between us, where the Hungarian people have propped up a dying Hapsburg patchwork empire for far too long. But unlike some of the Turkish posters here who can glean some warm feelings about the Ottomans, I don’t feel a lot of love for the “contributions” Hungarians made to the Hapsburg efforts in Europe; it was the average Hungarian man and woman who bled and died for nothing but the false promise of transcendence so that the elites could use them as pawns in their Imperial games. “Oh, we are all Christians! Ye who believe, come unto the Banner of Christ…. AND LET’S KILL SOME PRUSSIANS FOR THE AUSTRIAN KAISER!”

Turkey is blessed because under the leadership of Atatürk, the Turkic people of all kinds (from Anatolia, Balkans, and more) were able to secure Turkey from the occupying forces. They were able rally around their Turkicness and be free, proud, and technologically advanced. Turkey was able to overcome the allied forces against them while Communists in Hungary helped keep the military disbanded and we were invaded again after WW1 by all neighbors who kicked us when we were at the lowest possible moment.

Atatürk had a Turkish Balkan ancestry himself. Of this, I am well aware. The homeless Turkish Balkanites were able to rally around their Turkic past and leverage their numbers against occupiers who lost the gall to keep fighting such a determined people. Hungarians had no such fortune, and we suffered greatly for it.

Hungary is certainly not a perfect country. However, the policies that are being enacted in Turkey today make me worry about the future identity and Turkic culture of the ethnic Turkish if they do not embrace it fully; I worry my Turkic family there will be overrun under the guise of Islamic unity. The exact same lie is being played but with a different song by the EU who promises no more European wars and peace if member states will only kneel at the flag of a new Empire. Just like you said about the Turkish in the Balkans, the same scenario could happen all over again in Anatolia, but this time within the borders of modern Turkey itself. As I said to eatensemn, although I wish the best for the Turkish nation and do not want to see it engulfed in civil strife, it would be all I could do to try to help my Turkic family on some small scale and hope that Hungary could be a refuge for those who feel as though Turkey is not yet lost; a favor returned for the same refuge for the Hungarians. May we unify in our Turkicness in a meaningful way.

From the very Ottoman-era mehter song Ceddin deden:

Türk milleti!, Türk milleti,
Aşk ile sev milliyeti!

The conquering of Hungarian and Ottomans lands indeed a similar story with a core difference; religion. Think it as an adaptation to the new environment you started to live, choice of early Hungarians were adapting Christianity over Tengrism as a way to succeed on adaptation. Invasion attempts of Mongols strengthened this connection as caused Hungarians to create a common network with their Christian native neighbors by forming alliances to protect their lands. Of course, this was for all good. On the other side, Ottomans choose a different way. Anatolia was already Turkified during both Seljuks and Beyliks, so it was not a tough movement to sustain cultural stability in Anatolia. But the way of expansion was towards Balkans. In fact, the regions today's Balkan Turks lived conquered before most parts of Anatolia. Since the first occupations of Ottomans such as Bursa, Balikesir... They had gone with the way to convert former Greek speaker governors to their own side, and this was a brilliant way because they were not experienced in the region. Conquering of Eastern Balkans occurred thanks to two commanders, one was Karesi Turk by origin and the other was Muslim Greek. See what these two did:



This example is a kind of summarization of what happened in the region for years. Without the contribution of the people who accused of being traitor converts, Ottomans indeed couldn't make a great move in such a short time. And this would probably result in a civil war between Turkic Beyliks and would turn a pissing contest to who will form the actual state. Moreover, this is just the beginning of all. Afterward, these people were still the major actors of the court. I see that you think such a beneficiary alliance between folks can't last long. I agree that in normal conditions, but I disagree with that here. Descendants of these people still live in the Turkish community and actually still contribute and steer highly. Does the Western world want to see them as traitors? Okay, but this won't change the fact that these people are regular Turks now. By stating these all I'm not only protecting the rights of Balkan Turks, but also means that non-Turk Balkan and Caucasian Muslims are Turks as much as ethnic Turks. To compare the situation I can give you examples of Szekely and Csango. They have no genetic connection with the mainland and they are natives of where they live/lived. How would you react if one comes to you and say they are Romanian/Transylvanian traitors? What I'm trying to say is this. And to be honest, I dislike ethnic discrimination and embrace the confederation social structure with small tribal shires.

What about Ottomans? I'm clearly proud of them, what they achieved, and how my ancestors contributed. But this is not relevant to neo-Ottomanism. From our perspective, Ottoman advancement was legendary and the policy they followed made all Turks native to where they settled and gave us a home. In this sense, I don't think the situation is exactly same as Habsburg. Because Ottomans were also a founder nation for us, while Habsburg was a temporary cooperation. And every Turk should share the same views as I stated here even if they are not a fan of Ottomans. There is also a lot of things that I can criticize them, especially towards the end. The main thing is after the medieval Ottomans had to release their subjects and stop their expansion in any direction, and should stay as a Balkan-Anatolian Turkish state which embraced innovation. As opposite, they adopted Islamism more and more. This resulted in losing our home, eventually, homeless Balkanians defeated Ottomans themselves and created their new home in Anatolia. After all, you already can't expect to be a neo-Ottomanist from such a person. And as I stated, I'm a republican in any possibility and dislike both Empires and Imperialism.

There is also one more topic to talk about: Function of religions. I'm in favor of Muslims should stay as Muslims and Christians should stay as Christian. Because religion has no importance at all in mutual relations, at least it shouldn't have. Adapting Tengrism has no function to society, and disrespectful to our ancestors. Because early Hungarians choose Christianism with a purpose and transferred their own culture to inside; the same case in Muslim Turks. What Muslims should do is get riding of Islamism and adapting innovation which will make them improve. But leaving the religion is not a solution. Again, this case also applies to Christians. What we or they should do is finding a common point without changing the fact who we actually are. This is not something hard after realizing that religion is only about a person's himself and your not problem. For example, recent developments between Gagauz and Turks makes me happy. What can I say about the current situation about Turkey is not very different than you. But about future, I can guarantee that things will be different because Erdoğan apparently plays his last cards. To be honest I sometimes worry if we will see an overreaction in Turkish politics, like after years of Islamism years of leftism. In fact, we just need a normal person who doesn't have any personal agenda and cares only about economics and requirements of being a social state, then everything will be okay.