Árpád-house, the Ugro-Iranian dynasty

[kundur]

In Turkey, the Turks broke the taboo and make videos on how old Turks fought Arab armies in power struggles over Iranian city states in Central Asia while Turks being Tengri religion followers. How the direct ancestors of the Turks from Turkey fought Umayyad forces with Turgesh etc. And videos are made by Turks who are obviously Muslim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DORh6qifSfc

However Hungarians still have a long way to go. The Hungarian state looks like an Austro-Bavarian satellite state to this day, ruled by a guy who exclusively promotes a Catholic identity and a sharia state. Worse than Erdogan (this guy inaugurated an Assyrian church in Istanbul).

So much so that Hungarians do not promote all fights of Arpad to begin with.
How is it perceived in Hungary that Arpad himself wiped out a whole Bavarian army?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHUSCs4Nacg
Is it taboo to refer to such battles in Hungary, not risking to offend fellow Austrians?

We can conclude that the Turks are freer in their mind than Hungarians since Turks can criticize openly the Arabs and Islamic religion and even the Ottoman history. Yet, we hardly ever see any Hungarian daring to criticize Catholic faith or the Habsburgs or the Austro-Bavarian people.

[Bender1999]

Generally i have a problem of ottoman denial. We cannot asses some policies of ottomans with our views of this time. Also i say some things and points were mistakes or shouldn’t be happened. Also dreaming about a new ottoman empire and beeing proud of the old, real ottoman empire are 2 different points. No turk should support neo ottmanism, but every turk should be proud of the Ottoman Empire. Just my opinion.

[kundur]

Generally i have a problem of ottoman denial. We cannot asses some policies of ottomans with our views of this time. Also i say some things and points were mistakes or shouldn’t be happened. Also dreaming about a new ottoman empire and beeing proud of the old, real ottoman empire are 2 different points. No turk should support neo ottmanism, but every turk should be proud of the Ottoman Empire. Just my opinion.

All Turks would take pride that such a state originated from a nomadic clan of Turks. Whatever happened later. NeoOttomanism is huge problem as you say and is responsible for a great deal of the mess which Turkey is facing nowadays in Foreign Policy. The sole image of radicalism is enough.

But you are here on Hungarian forum and thread. Talking about Turkey doesn't make sense.

What you can do, should be the draft of comparison. Turks are way more free-minded than the Hungarians since you see Turks talking against Ottomans.
However, you don't see any Hungarian daring to tell the least negative thing about Habsburgs, Austrian and Bavarian people or about the Catholic religion.
And in the end of the day, they end up by acting as if the sole problem was coming from the side of the Turks, when the real problem is with them.

Turks don't take Arabs, Persians, Albanians or any other Muslims as masters.
All the while when Hungarians seem very humble in their relationship with their immediate Western neighbours.

That is the conclusion and the part which is worth being stressed.

[Turul Karom]

In Turkey, the Turks broke the taboo and make videos on how old Turks fought Arab armies in power struggles over Iranian city states in Central Asia while Turks being Tengri religion followers. How the direct ancestors of the Turks from Turkey fought Umayyad forces with Turgesh etc. And videos are made by Turks who are obviously Muslim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DORh6qifSfc

However Hungarians still have a long way to go. The Hungarian state looks like an Austro-Bavarian satellite state to this day, ruled by a guy who exclusively promotes a Catholic identity and a sharia state. Worse than Erdogan (this guy inaugurated an Assyrian church in Istanbul).

So much so that Hungarians do not promote all fights of Arpad to begin with.
How is it perceived in Hungary that Arpad himself wiped out a whole Bavarian army?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHUSCs4Nacg
Is it taboo to refer to such battles in Hungary, not risking to offend fellow Austrians?

We can conclude that the Turks are freer in their mind than Hungarians since Turks can criticize openly the Arabs and Islamic religion and even the Ottoman history. Yet, we hardly ever see any Hungarian daring to criticize Catholic faith or the Habsburgs or the Austro-Bavarian people.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Hungary is secular in practice. There are not many very religious people here; many churches are just museums and don't really function as Catholic churches. Hungary has a strong Protestant tradition as well; most of the Protestant movements and rebellions (such as the kuruc) were supportive of Ottoman help in Hungary and fought the westernized "Labanc" Hapsburgs. Every year we wear revolutionary cockade in public to commemorate the 1848 revolution, and we wear it everywhere on our clothing.

These battles are taught in schools all over Hungary, and there is a celebratory tradition in Heroes' Square every year about the exact battle that you posted a video about:

Generally i have a problem of ottoman denial. We cannot asses some policies of ottomans with our views of this time. Also i say some things and points were mistakes or shouldn’t be happened. Also dreaming about a new ottoman empire and beeing proud of the old, real ottoman empire are 2 different points. No turk should support neo ottmanism, but every turk should be proud of the Ottoman Empire. Just my opinion.

Thousands of years of history will inevitably lead to the rise and fall of many ethnic groups. I have at least some base level of respect for every ethnic group, including those who fight against Hungarians, as they certainly had members in their ranks who believed in the cause for which they held in their minds, even if the elites that puppeteer each side of conflicts have different intentions.

I respect your pragmatic opinion on this subject.

All Turks would take pride that such a state originated from a nomadic clan of Turks. Whatever happened later. NeoOttomanism is huge problem as you say and is responsible for a great deal of the mess which Turkey is facing nowadays in Foreign Policy. The sole image of radicalism is enough.

But you are here on Hungarian forum and thread. Talking about Turkey doesn't make sense.

What you can do, should be the draft of comparison. Turks are way more free-minded than the Hungarians since you see Turks talking against Ottomans.
However, you don't see any Hungarian daring to tell the least negative thing about Habsburgs, Austrian and Bavarian people or about the Catholic religion.
And in the end of the day, they end up by acting as if the sole problem was coming from the side of the Turks, when the real problem is with them.

Turks don't take Arabs, Persians, Albanians or any other Muslims as masters.
All the while when Hungarians seem very humble in their relationship with their immediate Western neighbours.

That is the conclusion and the part which is worth being stressed.

It's almost like you've never read a single post from me or any other Hungarian poster here.

Also, Hungary is treated as a pariah state by most of the western nations of the EU. Germany is not a fan of Hungarian policy because it makes them look weak as they attempt to lead the EU. Germany is the most powerful economic and one of the most socially-progressive countries, but it could not force Hungary to accept economic migrants or take down the fences on the border. This was an embarrassment to them, and it made the EU block that they champion look weak. They don't yet know how to deal with Hungary, so they are content with economic threats and moralizing to us in the EU parliament. Hungary aligns more and more eastward while the EU begins to shake from within.

You really are about 200 years out of date with you idea of Hungary; we don't have an aristocracy to backstab the election of a Hungarian monarch anymore to garner favors from a dying Hapsburg royal family.

[Turul Karom]

I was not angry, and the text I wrote is detailed as much as I can. So, I highly recommend you to read it again to understand what I meant. Moreover, despite I agree with you what you stated here, I see that there is no connection between these and what you wrote before. Therefore I don't think there is a misunderstanding. But not really need to bother as I know you didn't think anything negative in real meaning. I just felt a need to explain to you what's what in the historical sense to show the status of Balkan and Anatolian subjects during the period. Ignoring non-Turk communities and hiding the presence of Islam fact is not a way to promote Turkicness. You already experienced it but you became Turk when you feel it, no matter your religion or name. In this sense, claiming a specific group pay for deeds for others did is nothing but nonsense. Because we were one sole folk in the past, as we are today.

I understand; at least, I hope that I understand.

This is a complex topic, and I very much enjoy talking about it with you because it helps to share perspectives. You are an intellectual poster, and I have great respect for those who properly use their intellectualism to communicate. You can see I don’t post much on TA, or this many words, unless I mean to do so in good faith. I would ask of course that you read it all, but I know that you will. I thought a lot about how to say this today in English.

I have taken your advice, and I have re-read your long post a few times again. I will attempt to point out what I was saying, and I will comment on your longer post in parts. I will also show the continuity between my posts so that the connection is more clear. Each paragraph addresses your points then all follows a personal statement and a bit more about Hungary.

Hungary conquered a homeland as well. There are many myths and legends about it, from inheriting a crown from the Pope for a descendant of Attila in exchange for not sacking Rome, to being led to the area by the Turul bird and the dream of Emese. So who is responsible for displacing who? For all of history, people displace one another. Every animal does this; humans are not different from this rule. It is simply our means of justifying the land-taking that changes with culture, religion, resources, and ethnicity.

The most beautiful thing is that yes, the Turks ended the Ottoman Imperial system themselves, but as is for most things from the eyes of the West (not counting Hungarians), people only care about the narrative that “Ottomans bad.” This is an unfortunate reality. Hungary has always supported the collaboration and ascension of Turkey and the EU, but please understand that on a personal level, I greatly dislike the EU and see it as another attempt at a Western Empire, but this time much more sinister than just killing someone outright. It is a death with a slow kiss, and a promise of many breads and circuses if you are a good boy and lay down.

Turkey has been a place of scientific innovation, which is displayed by the scientists on its currency. Kaspias, do not get mad when people speak with two mouths about secular praises and “backwards” Turks. These are bad-faith LARPers who have nothing to offer because they are fixated on their own definitions of what their tribe is and that tribal mentality is cemented. They are completely westernized in the first place, and would therefore do better to look at what is happening in their nation within their own locus of control since they feel only hypocrisy towards Turks of Anatolia.

No groups are pure angels. We are all merely tribes. People who do not see that we are tribes with ultimately primitive tribal understandings of numbers, members, and interests are wistful needlessly; their policies of pure internationalism and unrestrained globalism will simply be turned on them in-turn as there will be no culture or ethnic group (tribe) to rally behind. They will be placed into the trashbin of history to forever be a footnote in the pages.

When I said “the average Anatolian Turk man and woman suffers today and now must carry the historical burdens of the Ottoman Empire deeds when most of the European invasions were led by European/Balkan Ottoman subjects and Pashas,” I did not mean that the Balkan population were somehow the perpetrators of every clichéd evil act upon hapless western (and westernized) nations.

Cooperating with the Ottomans was seen by many as treasonous, especially the Catholic western nations who were galvanized by the Pope. Even though the Ottomans maintained a degree of religious tolerance, you are not a naive man. You understand how the west during this time will not give credit to the Ottomans; to the western Empires, these Balkan bodies were people who should be paying THEM. Serving the THEIR levied armies. Serving in THEIR courts. Making THEM money. What do they gain by illustrating even a hint of cooperation in the Islamic Ottoman Empire? If there is one thing about Empires that is true, is that even if they have internal cooperation for a time, two Empires rarely cooperate with one another for long, if at all.

That’s the tragedy when I said in the first post that you quoted: “All of the blood and tears and suffering of the average Turkic man and woman for the "glory" of an Empire that would spit them out if it meant becoming better.” I saw the same thing happen to Hungarians for hundreds of years. There was no benefit in the long-term because all Empires promise the falsehood to the people that through the glory of the Empire, we are able to transcend our primitive tribal ways. However, tribalism is the core of human interaction, and this is usually a lie that the elites of Empires know is not a long-term possibility, but they will use all of the beautiful dreams and hopes and blood of its various ethnic groups (eventually, even the founders) who buy into the promise to sustain itself.

There was debate of what would happen to the minority groups in Hungary once it became free, especially after the 1848 revolution. Some debated that “Magyarization” was needed, which is the exact evil that was forced onto Hungarians by Germanics and other westerners. The idea was to take as many people possible and assimilate them so that once free, Hungary could be stronger as a European power and keep larger borders. But this clearly never happened; I don’t support this policy. Ethnic groups who fought against the Hapsburg Empire should have the rights to ALL be free.

Now what I will say is a more personal opinion than a generalized observation of history and human behavior and their analysis. In all honesty, I don’t feel as much pride about these Hapsburg times. Hungary didn’t prosper well. All of Hungarian treasure, blood, and hopes were spilled for largely pointless causes that didn’t end up benefiting the Hungarians in any measurable way. At best, it helped some small number of nobles gain favor in their attempts to intermarry into Western Hapsburg or Frankish royalty. Not all Hungarians might agree with me and this possibly uncomfortable truth, but it is truth nonetheless. In fact, all of the politicking and negotiating and backstabbing by the aristocrats who were disloyal to their fellow Magyar only saw Hungary become more carved up as the final “reward” after the Treaty of Trianon after defeat in WW1. We have throughout history been very “alone” and needed to re-win our home time and time again with blood and iron and death; an endless honfoglalás.

Read from our national anthem:

Though in caves pursued he lie,
Even then he fears attacks.
Coming forth the land to spy,
Even a home he finds he lacks.
Mountain, valley – go where he would,
Grief and sorrow all the same –
Underneath is a sea of blood,
While above is a sea of flame.'

Former forts are ruins now,
Joy and pleasure never found,
Only groans and sighs, I trow,
In its limits now unbound.

But no freedom's flowers return
From the spilled blood of the dead,
And the tears of slavery burn,
Which the eyes of orphans shed.

Pity, God, the Magyar, then,
Long by waves of danger tossed;
Help them by Thy strong hand when
They on grief's sea may be lost.
Fate, on for so long did frown,
Bring him happy times and ways;
Atoning sorrow hath weighed down
All the sins of all his days.

Just like the Balkan Turks, Hungarians for a long time had no home, and those who assimilated into Hungarian families by marrying and having children with ethnic Hungarian men and women only inherited the landlessness and burdens. I see the similarities between us, where the Hungarian people have propped up a dying Hapsburg patchwork empire for far too long. But unlike some of the Turkish posters here who can glean some warm feelings about the Ottomans, I don’t feel a lot of love for the “contributions” Hungarians made to the Hapsburg efforts in Europe; it was the average Hungarian man and woman who bled and died for nothing but the false promise of transcendence so that the elites could use them as pawns in their Imperial games. “Oh, we are all Christians! Ye who believe, come unto the Banner of Christ…. AND LET’S KILL SOME PRUSSIANS FOR THE AUSTRIAN KAISER!”

Turkey is blessed because under the leadership of Atatürk, the Turkic people of all kinds (from Anatolia, Balkans, and more) were able to secure Turkey from the occupying forces. They were able rally around their Turkicness and be free, proud, and technologically advanced. Turkey was able to overcome the allied forces against them while Communists in Hungary helped keep the military disbanded and we were invaded again after WW1 by all neighbors who kicked us when we were at the lowest possible moment.

Atatürk had a Turkish Balkan ancestry himself. Of this, I am well aware. The homeless Turkish Balkanites were able to rally around their Turkic past and leverage their numbers against occupiers who lost the gall to keep fighting such a determined people. Hungarians had no such fortune, and we suffered greatly for it.

Hungary is certainly not a perfect country. However, the policies that are being enacted in Turkey today make me worry about the future identity and Turkic culture of the ethnic Turkish if they do not embrace it fully; I worry my Turkic family there will be overrun under the guise of Islamic unity. The exact same lie is being played but with a different song by the EU who promises no more European wars and peace if member states will only kneel at the flag of a new Empire. Just like you said about the Turkish in the Balkans, the same scenario could happen all over again in Anatolia, but this time within the borders of modern Turkey itself. As I said to eatensemn, although I wish the best for the Turkish nation and do not want to see it engulfed in civil strife, it would be all I could do to try to help my Turkic family on some small scale and hope that Hungary could be a refuge for those who feel as though Turkey is not yet lost; a favor returned for the same refuge for the Hungarians. May we unify in our Turkicness in a meaningful way.

From the very Ottoman-era mehter song Ceddin deden:

Türk milleti!, Türk milleti,
Aşk ile sev milliyeti!

[Blondie]

Some debated that “Magyarization” was needed, which is the exact evil that was forced onto Hungarians by Germanics and other westerners. The idea was to take as many people possible and assimilate them so that once free, Hungary could be stronger as a European power and keep larger borders. But this clearly never happened; I don’t support this policy. Ethnic groups who fought against the Hapsburg Empire should have the rights to ALL be free.

Magyarization was not forced onto hungarians by austrians, they did it willingly, the complete consevative side was big fan of magyarization policy including Tisza Family, Apponyi etc. In the dualism the hungarian domestic politics was totally independent from Habsburgs.

[Chris596]

I just wanted to say, I would welcome a more comprehensive genetic test about the origin of the common people, the Hungarian nation. A genetic test which would include every region of the country and many other outside areas that no longer belong to Hungary (today's Slovakia, Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, Croatia, etc.) because, as we know, the place of origin of the leaders does not justify the origin of the common people, or at least the majority of the nation.

Perhaps some genetic research has already been done on this?

[Bender1999]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Hungary is secular in practice. There are not many very religious people here; many churches are just museums and don't really function as Catholic churches. Hungary has a strong Protestant tradition as well; most of the Protestant movements and rebellions (such as the kuruc) were supportive of Ottoman help in Hungary and fought the westernized "Labanc" Hapsburgs. Every year we wear revolutionary cockade in public to commemorate the 1848 revolution, and we wear it everywhere on our clothing.

These battles are taught in schools all over Hungary, and there is a celebratory tradition in Heroes' Square every year about the exact battle that you posted a video about:






Thousands of years of history will inevitably lead to the rise and fall of many ethnic groups. I have at least some base level of respect for every ethnic group, including those who fight against Hungarians, as they certainly had members in their ranks who believed in the cause for which they held in their minds, even if the elites that puppeteer each side of conflicts have different intentions.

I respect your pragmatic opinion on this subject.



It's almost like you've never read a single post from me or any other Hungarian poster here.

Also, Hungary is treated as a pariah state by most of the western nations of the EU. Germany is not a fan of Hungarian policy because it makes them look weak as they attempt to lead the EU. Germany is the most powerful economic and one of the most socially-progressive countries, but it could not force Hungary to accept economic migrants or take down the fences on the border. This was an embarrassment to them, and it made the EU block that they champion look weak. They don't yet know how to deal with Hungary, so they are content with economic threats and moralizing to us in the EU parliament. Hungary aligns more and more eastward while the EU begins to shake from within.

You really are about 200 years out of date with you idea of Hungary; we don't have an aristocracy to backstab the election of a Hungarian monarch anymore to garner favors from a dying Hapsburg royal family.

This wasn’t directed to you, just generally. Especially when turks amd former ottoman citizens do that.

I like hungarians. They are thousand times more likeable even we were in war in the past. They like us and some which we saved and loved ,hate us.

[kundur]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Hungary is secular in practice. There are not many very religious people here; many churches are just museums and don't really function as Catholic churches. Hungary has a strong Protestant tradition as well; most of the Protestant movements and rebellions (such as the kuruc) were supportive of Ottoman help in Hungary and fought the westernized "Labanc" Hapsburgs. Every year we wear revolutionary cockade in public to commemorate the 1848 revolution, and we wear it everywhere on our clothing.

These battles are taught in schools all over Hungary, and there is a celebratory tradition in Heroes' Square every year about the exact battle that you posted a video about:






Thousands of years of history will inevitably lead to the rise and fall of many ethnic groups. I have at least some base level of respect for every ethnic group, including those who fight against Hungarians, as they certainly had members in their ranks who believed in the cause for which they held in their minds, even if the elites that puppeteer each side of conflicts have different intentions.

I respect your pragmatic opinion on this subject.



It's almost like you've never read a single post from me or any other Hungarian poster here.

Also, Hungary is treated as a pariah state by most of the western nations of the EU. Germany is not a fan of Hungarian policy because it makes them look weak as they attempt to lead the EU. Germany is the most powerful economic and one of the most socially-progressive countries, but it could not force Hungary to accept economic migrants or take down the fences on the border. This was an embarrassment to them, and it made the EU block that they champion look weak. They don't yet know how to deal with Hungary, so they are content with economic threats and moralizing to us in the EU parliament. Hungary aligns more and more eastward while the EU begins to shake from within.

You really are about 200 years out of date with you idea of Hungary; we don't have an aristocracy to backstab the election of a Hungarian monarch anymore to garner favors from a dying Hapsburg royal family.

I must confess that I don't know Hungary closely, while being aware of the presence of a Protestant community (which is totally absent in Austria) and how France and other anti-Hungarian states forced an unfair Trianon treaty upon your state, giving out your lands to Romanians, Croats, Serbs, Slovaks etc. I just typed what I noticed upon looking at Hungary. It is a very low profile country when you look at her relation with German folks westwards.

[Blondie]

In Turkey, the Turks broke the taboo and make videos on how old Turks fought Arab armies in power struggles over Iranian city states in Central Asia while Turks being Tengri religion followers. How the direct ancestors of the Turks from Turkey fought Umayyad forces with Turgesh etc. And videos are made by Turks who are obviously Muslim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DORh6qifSfc

However Hungarians still have a long way to go. The Hungarian state looks like an Austro-Bavarian satellite state to this day, ruled by a guy who exclusively promotes a Catholic identity and a sharia state. Worse than Erdogan (this guy inaugurated an Assyrian church in Istanbul).

So much so that Hungarians do not promote all fights of Arpad to begin with.
How is it perceived in Hungary that Arpad himself wiped out a whole Bavarian army?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHUSCs4Nacg
Is it taboo to refer to such battles in Hungary, not risking to offend fellow Austrians?

We can conclude that the Turks are freer in their mind than Hungarians since Turks can criticize openly the Arabs and Islamic religion and even the Ottoman history. Yet, we hardly ever see any Hungarian daring to criticize Catholic faith or the Habsburgs or the Austro-Bavarian people.

Turul Karom has already wrote everything about it, but do you know why ottomans and germans have different reputation in Hungary? Because the ottomans destroyed complete hungarian cities, villages, this a map of it:



There were such areas (in red) where 90% of buildings were destroyed. Another this is the demography catastrophe. Before the ottomans the population of Carpathian Basin was 70-80% hungarian:



After the ottomans this number was only 35%:



So ottomans never brought here anything only destruction, mass killings and mosques.

Austrians did many sins (opression, germanization), but it's not on same level with ottomans, Habsburgs didn't commited complete genocide against hungarians. And later the german settlers helped to rebuilt Hungary after ottomans for example they brought te newest agricultural methods. What you see in Hungary today for example the Parlament, the National Theater, the National Museum, the famous bridges in Budapest, the complete hungarian railway were all bulit in Habsburg times. So although Habsburgs did bad things they also did many good things, unlike ottomans who did much worse things and didn't do any good thing.

And turks are more religious muslims than hungarians are religious christians, all churches are empty in Hungary, nobody goes there only some old man. I hope Böri you don't do another account, you already have 10-15 banned acc.