Moroccans in Spain

[Hamilcar]

Moroccans are equally alien in Spain than in Sweden. With the difference that for sure in Sweden they would be more appreciated. Haha

They are not alien, they were present in the iberian peninsula before iberians like you even exist. They later conquered it two times in History (also helped romans there in many occasions). Modern iberians have around 5 to 15% of north african ancestry while swedes do not. Also in terms of climate everything is the same and most of your monuments are moorish or mudejar.

[Cristiano viejo]

They are not alien,

They are very alien, look like Martians compared with Spaniards.

they were present in the iberian peninsula before iberians like you even exist.

False. If you think that ONE tomb of a supposed North African is enough to claim Moroccans (Moroccans!, who are 1/4 SSA) lived here you are just delusional.

Even Moriscos had nothing to do with Moroccans, like genetic proves
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-(Morisco-Kit)

They They later conquered it two times in History (also helped romans there in many occasions).

False again, first Phenicians were not Moroccans (you wish), second, they invaded, not conquered. They were defeated and expelled.

Modern iberians have around 5 to 15% of north african ancestry while swedes do not.

You wish Iberians were 5-15% North African. Post a single dna test where a fuckin Spanish scores these amounts, or you claim will have the same validity than you claiming Berbers are lighter than South Europeans

Sweden also score North African. Now it is when you claim they were present in Sweden before Swedish even existed
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...island-Gotland
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ge-Swede-Score

Also in terms of climate everything is the same

I would agree if Spain was a desert.

and most of your monuments are moorish or mudejar.

Mudéjar has nothing to do with Moroccans, not my fault you know nothing about architecture and history.
Most of our monuments = la Alhambra and nothing else
Oh wait, that the Alhambra was built by Arabs, not Moorish

[Gallop]

Yes, they are alien, to say otherwise would be a lie. They are foreigners in Spain and are easily identified, it is logical because of taxonomy and phenotypes. Even with their backs turned or wearing a mask, they are unmistakable. There are some cases of some that do not look like Moors.

I do not see the problem in recognizing that each country has its own or more usual taxonomy.

[Hamilcar]

They are very alien, look like Martians compared with Spaniards.

Strangely in my threads you keep saying they would pass in Spain. On a serious note now, yes we look very different to each other but I wasn't talking about that initially.

False. If you think that ONE tomb of a supposed North African is enough to claim Moroccans (Moroccans!, who are 1/4 SSA) lived here you are just delusional.

Even Moriscos had nothing to do with Moroccans, like genetic proves
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-(Morisco-Kit)

We do have archeological evidence of very early north african influence and this "moroccan" had more SSA than me actually :



You forget that they found this north african among their limited set of copper age samples (you think they had 1000 spanish samples and only found one "moroccan" ? ). They had only 7 samples from this period and yet they managed to find a north african among them.

Also another individual had 25% of north african ancestry :

Our genetic evidence of sporadic contacts with North Africa during the Copper Age fits with the presence of African ivory at Iberian sites (16) and is further supported by a Bronze Age individual (I7162) from Loma del Puerco in southern Iberia who had 25% ancestry related to individuals like I4246 (Fig. 1D and table S16).

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

As for muslim andalusians, I already told you that yes most muslims at that time were in fact iberians not arab or berber. This is a well known fact among historians. Here for example the well known Serafin Fanjul in his book about the myth of Al andalus :

in the 10th century half of the population of al andalus was already islamized, 80% in the 11th century and 90% in the 12th century

they were known as muladi : https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulad%C3%AD

But it wasn't like this everywhere, south-east spaniards were in fact around half north african :



as you can see many of them also had amazigh paternal haplogroups.

Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry (Fig. 2D, fig. S4, and table S22) and from uniparental markers typical of North Africa not present among pre-Islamic individuals (Fig. 2D and fig. S11). Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry (25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (former Muslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-day groups (25).

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

False again, first Phenicians were not Moroccans (you wish), second, they invaded, not conquered. They were defeated and expelled.

They were obviously not moroccans since morocco didn't exist at that time yet but carthaginians and their army were in fact composed of both punicized north africans and moorish/numidian troops. Carthaginians being genetically fully lebanese is a nonsense since the first phoenician settlers were outnumbered by the locals and they used to mix with north africans. That's why romans made the distinction between "phoenices" and "poeni" but let's see what specialists have to say about it :


Soldiers in Iberia were mostly North africans :

To maintain the Punic order, he made come from Africa 15 000 Libyan soldiers that he entrusted to his brother Hasdrubal

Yann le bohec , Histoire militaire des guerres puniques, p. 133


Before you say bullshit about the term "libyan" ------> It was used for all north africans not modern day libya which is a colonial creation : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Libya


again :

the bronze table of the cape lacinion also informs us on the manpower left with the provision of Asdrubal Barca, indicated by his elder brother to command Punic Spain: a fleet of 50 quinqueremes, 2 quadriremes and 5 triremes; a cavalry of 2550 elements made up, in majority, of Numidians, Moors, but also Libyphoenicians, and an infantry including 11 850 Africans, 300 Ligurians and 500 Balearics.

Carthage, Histoire d'une métropole méditerranéenne, Khaled Melliti, p. 310




Most soldiers of Hannibal in Italy were for example north africans :

most of the 6000 cavalrymen who arrived in Italy after Hannibal were precisely Numidians.[...] It is thus that, on the 20 000 infantrymen who arrived in the Po Plain at the end of 218, 12 000 were Libyans (Afri)

Carthage ou empire de la mer, François Decret, p. 83


It was culturally a mix civilization :

From this penetration of the Carthaginians in the middle of the African populations was to result a kind of fusion which led to a broad ethnic and cultural community. Thus, to take an example, at the time of Saint Augustine, a sort of Libyan-Punic dialect was still spoken in certain rural areas. The civilization of Carthage had been able to impose itself little by little, but in their turn, certain indigenous customs and traditional beliefs marked of their print those of these Phoenicians become Libyphoenicians. (This name was first given to the Phoenicians installed in the colonies of the African coast; only later, we find it applied to the Libyans having adopted the Punic customs and it also seems to have taken a legal and administrative value to designate the citizens of the Punic cities who benefited from the same civil rights as the Carthaginians of the capital.) By this "Africanization", which still enriches it, the Punic civilization belongs authentically to the North African cultural heritage. "It is out of doubt, writes Jerome Carcopino, that these colonies have, in the long run, formed as many hearths of a mixed civilization which, from near to near, has spread from the coast to the continent and has made prevail on all North Africa, and for millennia, the spirit of Carthage.

Carthage ou empire de la mer, François Decret, p. 114


According to Stéphane Gsell in his book about north africa's history Tome I :

It was necessary for the Phoenicians to maintain good relations with the natives, who fed their trade and could provide them with a robust and inexpensive workforce. They welcomed a certain number of them within their walls(4). "Silius Italicus, l. c., Salluste, Jugurtha, LXXVIII, 4 : (Leptis Magna). It is to be believed that, from the beginning, more than one colonist took a wife among the natives, because the majority of the immigrants must have been men.

Punic settlers in Sardinia were a mix of Sardinian and north african ancestry (where is the lebanese one if they were pure phoenicians ? ) :

Beyond our focal interest in Sardinia, the results from individuals from the Phoenician-Punic sites Monte Sirai and Villamar shed some light on the ancestry of a historically impactful Mediterranean population. Notably, they show strong genetic relationships to ancient North-African and eastern Mediterranean sources. These results mirror other emerging ancient DNA studies37,58, and are not unexpected given that the Punic center of Carthage on the North-African coast itself has roots in the eastern Mediterranean. Interestingly, the Monte Sirai individuals, predating the Villamar individuals by several centuries, show less North-African ancestry. This could be because they harbor earlier Phoenician ancestry and North-African admixture may have been unique to the later Punic context, or because they were individuals from a different ancestral background altogether. Estimated North-African admixture fractions were much lower in later ancient individuals and present-day Sardinian individuals, in line with previous studies that have observed small but significant African admixture in several present-day South European populations, including Sardinia

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6#Sec9

All six individuals from the Punic Villamar site were inferred to have substantial levels of ancient North-African ancestry (point estimates ranging 20–35%, Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE and PCA results, Figs. 2 and 4). When fit with the same five-way admixture model, present-day Sardinians have a small but detectable level of North-African ancestry (Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE analysis, Fig. 4).

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6#Sec2


Punic in Ibiza can only be modelled with a north african source and was also mixed with the local balearic people :

Phoenician colonies were established in the Balearic Islands during the Iron Age. The Ibiza individual published previously59 from a collective burial in a Punic hypogeum and dated to 361–178 cal. bc is not consistent with forming a clade with any of the Bronze Age Balearic individuals and has a qualitatively different ancestry profile; for example, a North African source of ancestry is required to obtain a fit (our model is 10.8±2.7% Iran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic and 89.2±2.7% Morocco_LN ancestry; Fig. 4, Supplementary Table 14). In proximal modelling, Ibiza_Phoenician also always requires Morocco_LN as one of the sources. Although some of these models include a Balearic Island Bronze Age source, it is possible that the Ibiza Phoenician individual has no ancestry at all from earlier Balearic peoples, as we fit her with models that have all of the Balearic Bronze Age individuals among the outgroups (for example, 17.0±3.1% France_Bell_Beaker and 83.0±3.1% Morocco_LN; Supplementary Table 19).

https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...erranean_0.pdf


Mixing between the two groups were common even among the elites :

The close relations maintained between the Punic and Numidian spheres are illustrated finally by the many testimonies of interbreeding: the matrimonial relations between the Punic and Numidian aristocracy were frequent, just like the mixed marriages between peoples - genealogies indicated on Neopunic inscriptions present names of Libyan and Punic origin which mix. One sees it, the bonds between Carthage and its hinterland were important. How can one still doubt this when one considers the power reached by the African metropolis in the western Mediterranean? Could it have maintained its hegemony and confronted the great powers of the time without having the human and economic resources of North-East Africa at its disposal, as well as a large territorial base? It is a fact that most of the Punic troops were composed of African elements, whether Libyan or Numidian, or that African populations colonized territories directly controlled by Carthage in the Mediterranean islands or in Iberia.

Carthage, histoire d'une métropole méditerranéenne, Khaled Melliti, 2016, p74-75

In Carthage itself, as well as in all Phoenician foundations, one must not let the native contribution to the elaboration of the so-called Punic culture escape. Very early on, marriages took place between Phoenicians and Numidians: Sophonisbe, after having been promised to Massinissa, had to marry Syphax for political reasons; another king of Numidia, Oezalces, Massinissa's uncle, chose as his wife a Carthaginian woman of great family, undoubtedly Hannibal's niece (Titus Livius, XXIX, 29, 12). Amilcar Barca did not hesitate to promise one of his daughters to the Numidian prince Narhavas (Polybius, I, 78). Titus Livy (Epit. 1.L), Appian (Lib. 99 and 111), Orosius (IV, 22, 8) speak of a marriage which would have united a daughter of Massinissa to a Carthaginian. [...] Before the outbreak of the third Punic war, there was in the capital a rather strong "party" which worked for collaboration with Massinissa and perhaps even for fusion with the great Numidian kingdom. The marriage of the Numidian princess, Massinissa's own daughter, if one retains its historicity, was part of a policy of alliance and seduction practiced by the king himself in order to be admitted to the Carthaginians and to make them forget his participation in the battle of Zama at the side of Scipio the African. While speaking about the foundation of Leptis, Salluste points out that "only the language of the inhabitants of Leptis changed as a result of the marriages with the Numidians." We learn that the Tyrians founders or descendants of the founders of Leptis mixed with the native population, intermarried with the Numidians. This was so frequent that the Phoenician language was altered; we witness the genesis of a Libyco-Phoenician dialect or Libyphoenician, to use a term of the ancient historiography.

Mhamed Fantar et François Décret, L'Afrique du Nord dans L'antiquité, p.59


The core of the carthaginian army was composed of north africans :

In fact, the heart of the Carthaginian military power will always be constituted by the Libyans populating the interior of the Carthaginian state and, recently, by the Iberians of the territory administered by the barcids in Spain, as well as by the complements provided by the Phoenician cities of Africa, such as Utica or Hadrumetes. These units, which form the bulk of the infantry, are the most stable and reliable of the Punic army. In fact, they contributed to stabilize the Punic manpower in front of the versatility of the mercenaries, even of the auxiliaries - Gallic in particular -, or with the inexperience of the new recruits. They played a role of framing and maintenance of the discipline essential for a manpower as multicolored as the army of Hannibal. This corps, the backbone of the infantry, played a tactical role of primary importance throughout Hannibal's campaign

Carthage, Histoire d'une métropole méditerranéenne, Khaled Melliti, p. 310


Colonisation of carthage was made thanks to north africans :

This period of colonial expansion had a marked influence on the race. It was not possible to organize all these new foundations with only Phoenician elements. These only provided the framework of these colonies, the mass was borrowed from the local Libyan population led by Libyan-Phoenician half-breeds. The ancient authors left us information not doubtful on this form of colonization. Diodorus says thus, that Theuna in Sicily was founded by Carthage, which sent there some of the citizens of the city and those of the Libyans who wanted to benefit from the occasion (XIII LXIX.8). Cicero, in his speech Pro Scauro (XIX, 42) mentions the same procedures of emigration.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/linly_1160...num_11_1_16377

that would explain why south-east iberians were already half north african even before the moorish conquest :

In the southeast, we recovered genomic data from 45 individuals dated between the 3rd and 16th centuries CE. All analyzed individuals fell outside the genetic variation of preceding Iberian Iron Age populations (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S3) and harbored ancestry from both Southern European and North African populations (Fig. 2D), as well as additional Levantine-related ancestry that could potentially reflect ancestry from Jewish groups (21). These results demonstrate that by the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24).

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230


Bertholon concluded that most skulls he analyzed were in fact north africans :

As for the demonstrative form, i.e. physical anthropology, the cultural features are, for Bertholon, only confirmations of what anthropometry and craniology establish (1904, 1908). His "Essay on the religion of the Libyans" is quite revealing of his conception of things: he affirms that the gods of the Carthaginians were Libyan gods, a discovery confirming a fact (if one can say so) established by the study of more than five hundred skulls showing that the "Punic type" was exceptional in the Carthaginian population, and that the Phoenicians of Carthage were in fact Libyans.

https://www.persee.fr/doc/cea_0008-0...um_33_129_2076


According to the Historian Jean-Marie Lassère, carthaginians were punicized north africans not really levantines :

The people are not well known. In the cities, probably made up mostly of punicized Libyans, they represent a middle class of artisans and shopkeepers, but also of sailors and fishermen.

africa quasi roma, p. 40


Close affinity between guanches and carthaginians which is maybe explained by the fact that carthaginians were actually north africans :

The very low MMD between the Canary Islanders and Carthaginians, who originated in West Asia, suggests a particularly close affinity, despite the geographic distance between these two populations. This result, again, may reflect Berber/Carthaginian admixture.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...18442X04700153


Italians when they lost against Hannibal were scared north africans would dominate them :

Continuing his march towards the capital, Hannibal inflicted another painful defeat at the edges of the Trasimene lake in Etruria where 30 000 men among the Romans were deplored; and let his troops plunder the regions of Campania and Samnium. What made say to the consul Minucius quoted by Livy : "We have, alas! so much degenerated since our fathers, that this coast, along which the circulation of the Punic fleets appeared to them a dishonor for their empire, we see it now filled with enemies, soon property of Numides and Moors. To the Campanian delegation received by the consul Varron, this one answered on his side: "Consider thus this defeat, Campanians, as reaching also the two people; think that you have to defend our common fatherland. We do not have to deal with the Samnites and the Etruscans; the empire which they could take away from us would remain at least in Italy. The Carthaginian, our enemy, drags after him soldiers, not even Africans, but from the ends of the world, from the Ocean and the columns of Hercules, without laws, without rights, almost without human language. These soldiers, naturally ferocious and savage, their leader made them even more savage, by making them build bridges with dykes of piled up human corpses, and, what cannot be said without horror, by teaching them to eat human flesh. These men, fed with infamous food, these men that we could not even touch without horror, we should look at them, consider them as our masters! We would have to ask our laws to Africa, to Carthage, to suffer that Italy was a province of the Numidians and the Moors! Is there a single Italian who can think of this without indignation?

Mouna Hachim, Histoire inattendue du Maroc, p. 77-78


Craniometric measures showed that the closest people to carthaginians were protohistoric algerians not really west asians :

Chamla (1975, 19761, using Penrose’s measure, found a “protohistorical” Algerian series (1500 BC) to be most similar to Carthaginian remains (900-200 BC); Bronze Age Spanish, early Grand Canary, and Eighteenth Dynasty Egyptian crania showed the next greatest affinities. A Carthaginian series proved to be most similar to the Algerian series, followed by late North Spanish, early Grand Canary, Bronze Age French, Etruscan, Parthian Syrian, and Eighteenth Dynasty Egyptian crania from Abydos. The results oft tests of individual variables used showed that there was no statistical difference for these variables between the Algerian and Carthaginian series.

SOY Keita, Studies of ancient crania from northern Africa, p. 37


Ancient writers often couldn't make the difference between punics and north africans :

To this plasticity is added the confusion which one notices in the classic historiography: certain ancient authors distinguish badly the Libyans from the Punics. Dion Chrysostom points out that Hannon "had transformed the Carthaginians from Tyrians to Libyans" (Discourse, XXV); Arrien qualifies the explorer Hannon as "Libyan": "Hannon, the Libyan", he writes (Indica, XLIII, 11).

Mhamed Fantar et François Décret, L'Afrique du Nord dans L'antiquité, p. 22


So like I said punicized north africans :

At the origin of the Libyan population, there was the marriage of two peoples and consequently of two cultures. It was already the opinion of Tite-Live and Diodorus of Sicily, for whom Libyphenicians were people of mixed blood, half-phoenician, half-Libyan, and, we specify, of mixed culture. It is most often a question of cultural grafting: on the ethnic level, the Phoenician element coming from the East, a minority compared to the mass of the natives, was quickly absorbed; it could impose itself by its cultural contribution and impose the tones of the Phoenician civilization. This reciprocal assimilation required a very long period of time but it was already accomplished at the time when the city of Carthage had the empire of the western Mediterranean. Carthage was then no longer a Phoenician city in Africa, but an African city whose culture was characterized by its Phoenician dominance.

Mhamed Fantar et François Décret , L'Afrique du Nord dans L'antiquité, p. 61

You wish Iberians were 5-15% North African. Post a single dna test where a fuckin Spanish scores these amounts, or you claim will have the same validity than you claiming Berbers are lighter than South Europeans

Sweden also score North African. Now it is when you claim they were present in Sweden before Swedish even existed
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...island-Gotland
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ge-Swede-Score

It's a known fact in the scientific community that Iberians score the highest amount of North african ancestry :

Collectively, we can identify at least two different gene-flow events in the Iberian Peninsula for which the inferred dates correlate with Arab rule in the territory: an early concentrated event in the northwest of the Peninsula, and a continuous and more recent event in the south. Moreover, the North African populations that settled in the Peninsula during the Arab conquest may have had different origins (both in time and in geography), which could be indicative of different migration waves (electronic supplementary material, table S3).

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...hM1E28&#d3e750

We have shown that recent North African ancestry is highest in southwestern Europe and decreases in northern latitudes, with a sharp difference between the Iberian Peninsula and France, where Basques are less influenced by North Africa (as suggested in ref. 48). Our estimates of shared ancestry are much higher than previously reported (up to 20% of the European individuals’ genomes). [...] Our results, based on both allele frequencies and long shared haplotypes, support the hypothesis that recent migrations from North Africa contributed substantially to the higher genetic diversity in southwestern Europe. [...] Southwestern European populations average between 4% and 20% of their genomes assigned to a North African ancestral cluster (SI Appendix, Fig. S3), whereas this value does not exceed 2% in southeastern European populations. A gradient of shared IBD segments is observed from southern to northern Europe (based on WEA; Fig. 2 and SI Appendix, Table S3). This sharing is highest in the Iberian Peninsula for both North Africa and Sub-Saharan African IBD segments. Interestingly, the Basques are an exception to this pattern because they show similar levels of sharing to other European populations, but inhabit the Iberian Peninsula.

Whereas inferred IBD sharing does not indicate directionality, the North African samples that have highest IBD sharing with Iberian populations also tend to have the lowest proportion of the European cluster in ADMIXTURE (Fig. 1), e.g., Saharawi, Tunisian Berbers, and South Moroccans. For example, the Andalucians share many IBD segments with the Tunisians (Fig. 3), who present extremely minimal levels of European ancestry. This suggests that gene flow occurred from Africa to Europe rather than the other way around.

https://www.pnas.org/content/110/29/11791





Same in Portugal :

Within the Iberian Peninsula, the admixture proportion of North African ancestry in southern Portugal samples was 11.17 ± 1.87%, similar to the values observed in Galicia (10.30 ± 1.64%) and western Andalusia (present study, 9.28 ± 1.79%).[/B] The Canary Islands (not selected here) exhibit extreme values of the inferred Maghrebi cluster (26%) (Guillen-Guio et al. 2018). Asni Berbers carry the highest proportion of the native Maghrebi ancestral cluster (82.74 ± 8.36%) with respect to the other Moroccan samples.

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/37/4/1041/5670533

I would agree if Spain was a desert.

Morocco's climate is described as mostly mediterranean and continental atlantic on its western coast :

Most of Morocco north of the Western Sahara, particularly along the coasts, experiences a typical Mediterranean climate, with mild wet winters and hot dry summers. The rainy season generally extends from October to April. Torrential downpours occasionally produce devastating floods, but overall several factors act to reduce the country’s rainfall. Morocco is on the southern margins of the mid-latitude tract of frontal storm systems that regularly traverse the North Atlantic. As a result, rainfall levels are relatively low and gradually decrease from north to south. High-pressure ridges, moreover, periodically develop offshore during the rainy season, shifting storms to the north. Drought results when these ridges persist for extended periods. The cold Canary Current off the western shores also induces atmospheric stability and further decreases the potential for precipitation.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Morocco/Climate

The Moroccan climate is both Mediterranean and Atlantic, with a hot and dry season coupled with a cold and wet season, the end of the hot period being marked by rains in October.

https://www.infostourismemaroc.com/e...ate-of-morocco


As for desert, Spain do have at least 4 deserts (highest concentration in Europe) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deserts_of_Spain

Tabernas Desert :




or the famous Monegros Desert :

Mudéjar has nothing to do with Moroccans, not my fault you know nothing about architecture and history.
Most of our monuments = la Alhambra and nothing else
Oh wait, that the Alhambra was built by Arabs, not Moorish

It was not built by Arabs but by people who claim arab lineages :

More soundly based than Guichard's conclusions are the insightful observations of Glick. As he remarks, "arabization of the Berbers during this period must be carefully qualified", noting that "many Berbers falsified their genealogies, adopting Arab tribal names in order to dissemble their true ethnic identity." This is correct, and no less true of so-called "Arabs" than of Berbers in al-Andalus. Not only were they concerned with hiding their true origins, but also by claiming association with one of the elite tribes of early Islam, a definite social and religious status could be automatically achieved; all a part of the much-discussed "Arabiyya" (arabization) propaganda (tough too few authors have recognized this aspect of the problem). Furthermore, the early muslim chronicles of the conquests (not of al-Andalus, but in general) make it eminently clear that the true Arabs were opposed to travelling beyond the boundaries of their homeland, and had little interest in settling such far-away places as Iraq and Syria, much less Spain.

Jews, Visigoths and muslims in medieval Spain by Norman Roth, p47

That's why palaces like the alhambra are not found in saudi arabia or Yemen. Its architecture is specifically maghrebi :

Moorish art developed in North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula around the 11th century. Moorish art is a variation of Islamic art. Elements of Moorish architecture include a variety of arches, intricate calligraphy, vegetative design, and decorative tilework.

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/media/moorish-art/

Mudejar architecture is simply a later phase of the moorish one and was made by islamic craftsmen not christians :

Mudéjar was originally the term used for Muslims of Al-Andalus who remained after the Christian reconquest of Muslim controlled territories in the later Middle Ages but were not initially converted to Christianity or exiled. It was a medieval Castilian borrowing of the Arabic word Mudajjan مدجن, meaning "tamed", referring to Muslims who submitted to the rule of Christian kings.

Mudejar style in architecture refers to the application of decorative Islamic art styled motifs and patterning to Christian styles of architecture. It is supposed to have begun with Muslim craftsmen living in reconquered medieval Iberia who applied traditional constructive, ornamental, and decorative elements derived from Islamic arts to Romanesque, Gothic, and Renaissance architectural styles in the Christian kingdoms of Iberia.[6] These decorative techniques included calligraphy, intricate geometry, and vegetal forms derived from Islamic art and architecture

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud%C3%A9jar_art


That's why it looks nothing like what christians produced in the peninsula.

[Rafael Passoni]

[Cristiano viejo]

Strangely in my threads you keep saying they would pass in Spain. On a serious note now, yes we look very different to each other but I wasn't talking about that initially.

lol I said TWO ALGERIANS (AL-GE-RIANS) could pass in Spain. Why do you manipulate my words?
I have always claimed 1% of Moroccans could pass in Spain

We do have archeological evidence of very early north african influence and this "moroccan" had more SSA than me actually :

You forget that they found this north african among their limited set of copper age samples (you think they had 1000 spanish samples and only found one "moroccan" ? ). They had only 7 samples from this period and yet they managed to find a north african among them.

Also another individual had 25% of north african ancestry

One tomb = very early North African influence... LOL, ARE YOU CRAZY OR WHAT? it could be a slave, a trader, but overall, you can not prove, as obvious, there were North African populations in Iberia at that time, let alone ruling the land etc. No ruins, monuments, cities, camps, NOTHING.

But the problem here is not if they found a North African tomb (man, if they search in Santa Elena, Jaén, they will find dozens of thousands of tombs, since there happened the battle of las Navas de Tolosa and thousands of Moors were killed. Does this prove something? ). The problem is you claiming a nonsense, that Iberia was settled by North Africans and therefore is their land

That would not be so hilarious like claiming Morocco belongs to black people since they found more than 30 black tombs in Taforalt, I admit

As for muslim andalusians, I already told you that yes most muslims at that time were in fact iberians not arab or berber. This is a well known fact among historians. Here for example the well known Serafin Fanjul in his book about the myth of Al andalus :

Man, I know the work of Serafín Fanjul... I have this book


He is the most prominent Spanish Arabist, and he is for sure the most anti-Arabic Arabist in the entire world he refutes most of the supposedly Moorish influence in Spain, and if you truly have read some of his books you should know it.

But it wasn't like this everywhere, south-east spaniards were in fact around half north african :

Yeah, Spaniards of e1b1 and J haplogroups bitch please, these are Carthaginians.

as you can see many of them also had amazigh paternal haplogroups.

Because they were Muslims, for God sake!

When they find your tomb in Belgium I hope the future North Africans dont claim Belgium was North African land

They were obviously not moroccans since morocco didn't exist at that time yet but carthaginians and their army were in fact composed of both punicized north africans and moorish/numidian troops.


Soldiers in Iberia were mostly North africans

Before you say bullshit about the term "libyan" ------> It was used for all north africans not modern day libya which is a colonial creation : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Libya

Most soldiers of Hannibal in Italy were for example north africans

The core of the carthaginian army was composed of north africans

Yes, North Africans. Not Moroccans per se. The last time I checked Cartago was in Tunis.

that would explain why south-east iberians were already half north african even before the moorish conquest

No, that proves there were Carthaginians in Iberia and they died here.
Iberians were not J or e1, sorry. Who the fuck do you pretend to deceive??

It's a known fact in the scientific community that Iberians score the highest amount of North african ancestry

And someone denied that?? even if debatable because Italians also score a similar amount. No comment that African e1b1 is found in Balkans in incredible percentages.

This has several nuances. Not the same a Cantabrian than a Canarian. Not the same a Spanish than a Portuguese.

Morocco's climate is described as mostly mediterranean and continental atlantic on its western coast

Western coast of Morocco= 1% of Morocco.

As for desert, Spain do have at least 4 deserts (highest concentration in Europe)

Even our 4 deserts (0,00000000000000000000001% of our geography and thank whom we have the most diverse geography in Europe) look different than the great Saharan desert (95% of the Moroccan territory)

It was not built by Arabs but by people who claim arab lineages

The Alhambra was built by Abu al Ahmar, a proper Arab, not a Berber or any other North African, Moorish or whatever you are thinking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_I_of_Granada

Berbers were just the bitches of Arabs, the sooner you accept it the better for you. Arabs = elite. Berbers = pawns.

That's why palaces like the alhambra are not found in saudi arabia or Yemen. Its architecture is specifically maghrebi

Neither in Maghreb, idiot

But that even does not matter, as if an Arab could not build whatever outside Arabia...

Mudejar architecture is simply a later phase of the moorish one and was made by islamic craftsmen not christians


That's why it looks nothing like what christians produced in the peninsula.

Please, stop looking so illiterate. It is really disheartening.

Mudéjar architecture can be found all over Spain, from Vascongadas to Andalusia, in places where Muslims never stepped.

How many times do you need to hear that Mudéjar architecture is a mix of Gothic, Renacentist, Romanesque, and yes, Moorish, and not proper Moorish and not even produced by Moorish??

A BIG LOL AT "ISLAMIC CRAFTSMEN"

Here a few Spanish alarifes (architects of Mudéjar art, if you are not able to translate that Arabic word )
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_...3pez_de_Arenas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Maroto
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_de_Torija
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_d...ncia_(alarife)

And HEY, I am not completely deniying some alarifes were really Muslim (even if everybody know those Muslims were just Iberians converted to Islam). Of course there were. But claiming as you claim Mudéjar art was only done by Muslims, sorry but no, it is a great lie

You are really ignorant if you think the main Mudéjar architecture was built by Muslims:

The Royal Alcázars of Seville is a royal palace in Seville, Spain, built for the Christian king Peter of Castile. It was built by Castilian Christians on the site of an Abbadid Muslim alcazar, or residential fortress. The fortress was destroyed after the Christian conquest of Seville. The palace is a preeminent example of Mudéjar architecture in the Iberian Peninsula but features Gothic, Renaissance and Romanesque design elements from previous stages of construction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alc%C3%A1zar_of_Seville

Tell me, which part of that dont you understand?

[Hamilcar]

lol I said TWO ALGERIANS (AL-GE-RIANS) could pass in Spain. Why do you manipulate my words?
I have always claimed 1% of Moroccans could pass in Spain

Algerians are genetically similar to moroccans so I don't really see what you're trying to imply here whether moroccan, algerian or tunisian it won't change a damn thing. And stop comparing your people to us, we're very different physically.

One tomb = very early North African influence... LOL, ARE YOU CRAZY OR WHAT? it could be a slave, a trader, but overall, you can not prove, as obvious, there were North African populations in Iberia at that time, let alone ruling the land etc. No ruins, monuments, cities, camps, NOTHING.

But the problem here is not if they found a North African tomb (man, if they search in Santa Elena, Jaén, they will find dozens of thousands of tombs, since there happened the battle of las Navas de Tolosa and thousands of Moors were killed. Does this prove something? ). The problem is you claiming a nonsense, that Iberia was settled by North Africans and therefore is their land

That would not be so hilarious like claiming Morocco belongs to black people since they found more than 30 black tombs in Taforalt, I admit

Wtf are you talking about ? I just said there were north africans in the peninsula way before iberians like you exist. I never claimed or imply they had kingdoms there wtf. And taforalt were absolutely not black, again you're embarassing yourself :

We studied three northern African samples of human cranial remains from the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary: Afalou-bou-Rhummel, Taforalt, and Sudanese Nubia (Jebel Sahaba and Tushka), and compared them to late Pleistocene Europeans and modern Europeans and Africans. Despite their relatively late dates, all three of our own samples exhibit the robusticity typical of late Pleistocene Homo sapiens. As far as population affinities are concerned, Taforalt is Caucasoid and closely resembles late Pleistocene Europeans, Sudanese Nubia is Negroid, and Afalou exhibits an intermediate status. Evidently the Caucasoid/Negroid transition has fluctuated north and south over time, perhaps following the changes in the distribution of climatic zones.

https://openresearch-repository.anu....dle/1885/90696

The Late Pleistocene material from Afalou and Taforalt in North Africa, on the other hand, had no similarity with sub-Saharan Africa. Instead, the groups from which it cannot be distinguished range from the Neolithic of Algeria and Egypt, modern Nubia, and especially modern Europe. The pattern of affiliations of the Algerian Neolithic is remarkably similar to that of the Algerian Late Pleistocene at Afalou and Taforalt and suggests long-term in situ population continuity.

Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31.

Man, I know the work of Serafín Fanjul... I have this book


He is the most prominent Spanish Arabist, and he is for sure the most anti-Arabic Arabist in the entire world he refutes most of the supposedly Moorish influence in Spain, and if you truly have read some of his books you should know it.

Holy sh*t you're so dumb....yes I also have his book and even if he was really racist it doesn't change the fact that he says most muslims in al andalus were iberians not north africans or arabs.

Yeah, Spaniards of e1b1 and J haplogroups bitch please, these are Carthaginians.

So now strangely carthaginians are no more phoenicians ? And you can be fully spaniard and having a berber haplogroup like many modern spaniards :

Because they were Muslims, for God sake!

When they find your tomb in Belgium I hope the future North Africans dont claim Belgium was North African land

"muslim" is not a race and like the link you posted show : these muslims in their tombs were in fact iberians.

Yes, North Africans. Not Moroccans per se. The last time I checked Cartago was in Tunis.

Moroccans are north africans and back then Morocco didn't exist. I have ancestors from all the maghreb that's basic statistics and genetically the spread of E-m81 can only be explained by massive internal population movements.

That's why one of the less mixed punic of Sardinia is close to me and other north africans :

Distance to: ITA_Sardinia_Punic:VIL011
0.06256862 Kabyle
0.06610059 Kabyle2
0.06636754 Hamilcar
0.07275738 Moroccan_North
0.07776363 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
0.08748593 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
0.09417202 Tunisian

And someone denied that?? even if debatable because Italians also score a similar amount. No comment that African e1b1 is found in Balkans in incredible percentages.

Italians don't score similar amounts, the study I posted clearly says the highest % is in Iberia. And Balkans have E-V13 not E-m81 or E-M78. E-V13 is not north african. Moreover haplogroups aren't going to make someone north african but their autosomal composition will.

Western coast of Morocco= 1% of Morocco.

Reread the quotes : Most of Morocco has a mediterranean climate but its western coast has a more atlantic influenced climate than proper mediterranean.

The Alhambra was built by Abu al Ahmar, a proper Arab, not a Berber or any other North African, Moorish or whatever you are thinking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_I_of_Granada

Berbers were just the bitches of Arabs, the sooner you accept it the better for you. Arabs = elite. Berbers = pawns.

The quote I posted clearly showed that these rulers lied about their lineages to legitimize their power and you also contradicted yourself since you claimed a while ago that since he was redhead he must have been spanish. Arabs only ruled 30 years in the maghreb and were expelled after the battle of Bagdoura in the context of the general berber revolt of 740. Later Hilalian tribes came and were defeated again at the battle of Setif by the almohads and used as cannon fodder in Andalucia so no there is no arab masters.

Neither in Maghreb, idiot

But that even does not matter, as if an Arab could not build whatever outside Arabia...

Is this a joke ? Morocco has better monuments that the little court of alhambra and most moorish monuments are found in Morocco not in Spain. Listen to your people :


"The kings of Granada always imitated those of Fez: their cities, their areas, their buildings, their government and many other aspects were very similar."

Luis Del Marmol Carvajal, 1600.

that's also why your people needs moroccans to renovate the Alhambra :

Please, stop looking so illiterate. It is really disheartening.

Mudéjar architecture can be found all over Spain, from Vascongadas to Andalusia, in places where Muslims never stepped.

How many times do you need to hear that Mudéjar architecture is a mix of Gothic, Renacentist, Romanesque, and yes, Moorish, and not proper Moorish and not even produced by Moorish??

A BIG LOL AT "ISLAMIC CRAFTSMEN"

Here a few Spanish alarifes (architects of Mudéjar art, if you are not able to translate that Arabic word )
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_...3pez_de_Arenas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Maroto
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_de_Torija
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_d...ncia_(alarife)

And HEY, I am not completely deniying some alarifes were really Muslim (even if everybody know those Muslims were just Iberians converted to Islam). Of course there were. But claiming as you claim Mudéjar art was only done by Muslims, sorry but no, it is a great lie

You are really ignorant if you think the main Mudéjar architecture was built by Muslims:

The Royal Alcázars of Seville is a royal palace in Seville, Spain, built for the Christian king Peter of Castile. It was built by Castilian Christians on the site of an Abbadid Muslim alcazar, or residential fortress. The fortress was destroyed after the Christian conquest of Seville. The palace is a preeminent example of Mudéjar architecture in the Iberian Peninsula but features Gothic, Renaissance and Romanesque design elements from previous stages of construction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alc%C3%A1zar_of_Seville

Tell me, which part of that dont you understand?

Are you that dumb ? Obviously it can be found in places were old muslims never stepped since it was after the reconquista. These muslims were employed by the christian kings to do the work they want everywhere they want. And I will not repeat again and again reread the quotes I posted I don't care about your opinions. If a belgian or swede see the alcazar palace he will think he's in morocco certainly not Europe.

[Cristiano viejo]

Algerians are genetically similar to moroccans so I don't really see what you're trying to imply here whether moroccan, algerian or tunisian it won't change a damn thing.

Why do you bring genetic into discussion?? Genetic has nothing to do when we are discussing about phenotypes or if this or that person passes here or there.

And stop comparing your people to us, we're very different physically.

Wtf are you talking about ? I just said there were north africans in the peninsula way before iberians like you exist. I never claimed or imply they had kingdoms there wtf.

And there were blacks in Morocco way before you exist as well.

And in infinitely higher amounts.

And taforalt were absolutely not black, again you're embarassing yourself

Absolutely not black, JUASSS. Taforalt tombs come from Iberomaurisians, who were black as fuck.

Holy sh*t you're so dumb....yes I also have his book and even if he was really racist it doesn't change the fact that he says most muslims in al andalus were iberians not north africans or arabs.

And have I discussed that fact??
You are the dumb, here, mixing sentences everywhere

So now strangely carthaginians are no more phoenicians ? And you can be fully spaniard and having a berber haplogroup like many modern spaniards :

Pasiegos have nothing to do with Berbers, nor phenotypically nor culturally nor historically. Try better.

"muslim" is not a race and like the link you posted show : these muslims in their tombs were in fact iberians.

With Muslims I meant North Africans. No, they were not Iberians. Iberians had not haplos e or j, sorry.

That's why one of the less mixed punic of Sardinia is close to me and other north africans

Stop talking me bout Sardinia, I could not care less.

Italians don't score similar amounts, the study I posted clearly says the highest % is in Iberia.

South Italians do. And you can not compare entire populations when a Basque, an Aragonese, a Catalan, a Riojan scores less than a Sicilian, a Calabrese, a Campanian.

And Balkans have E-V13 not E-m81 or E-M78. E-V13 is not north african.

Of course is. Haplo e is African in origin.

Moreover haplogroups aren't going to make someone north african but their autosomal composition will.

You seemed to opine other thing when above you posted people with haplos e and j claiming they were Spaniards of North African origin

Reread the quotes : Most of Morocco has a mediterranean climate but its western coast has a more atlantic influenced climate than proper mediterranean.

Same than you can not compare Spanish and Moroccan climate ((MUH STOP COMPARING YOUR PEOPLE AND THE MINE, juassss)). You wish you had our forests, agricultural fields, beachs, mountains and sierras.

The quote I posted clearly showed that these rulers lied about their lineages to legitimize their power and you also contradicted yourself since you claimed a while ago that since he was redhead he must have been spanish. Arabs only ruled 30 years in the maghreb and were expelled after the battle of Bagdoura in the context of the general berber revolt of 740. Later Hilalian tribes came and were defeated again at the battle of Setif by the almohads and used as cannon fodder in Andalucia so no there is no arab masters.

30 years... and yet you speak Arabic, are Muslims and have tons of Arabic traditions and culture, true?

Is this a joke ? Morocco has better monuments that the little court of alhambra

Yeah, that is why the Alhambra is an Unesco World Heritage site, and proposed to be one of the seven Wonders of the World, plus being one of the most visited monuments in the world

There is nothing in Morocco not even moderately similar, boy

and most moorish monuments are found in Morocco not in Spain.

Obviously!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Listen to your people :

Luis Del Marmol Carvajal, 1600.

Not my people. Luis del Mármol Carvajal was a Jew, sorry.

that's also why your people needs moroccans to renovate the Alhambra

You are not able to build monuments or buildings in Morocco, yet you think you can give lessons about architecture???

Are you that dumb ? Obviously it can be found in places were old muslims never stepped since it was after the reconquista. These muslims were employed by the christian kings to do the work they want everywhere they want. And I will not repeat again and again reread the quotes I posted I don't care about your opinions. If a belgian or swede see the alcazar palace he will think he's in morocco certainly not Europe.

And if I travel to Brussels will I think I am in Morocco too?

Man, what illiterate Belgians or Swedish think dont altere the truth, Mudéjar architecture is just part Moorish in style, and built by Christians for Christians, and many times to represent the triumph of Christianity on Islam. FACT.

[Gredos]

Moorish influence, relation, and identification in Spain is close to




Note that I do not say that it is non-existent, I say that it is very close to 0

[Rafael Passoni]

I interacted with a Morrocan immigrant in Palermo and he was very rude and has acted in a strange way (wanted my phone number), but he speak Italian quite well.