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Thread: Forest Finns were not of Finnish ancestry, says a large Wikipedia description

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    Default Forest Finns were not of Finnish ancestry, says a large Wikipedia description

    This is a fact figured out in Finnish history research, but here we go again.

    The use of the term "Forest Finns" is first reported in sanctions issued by the Dano-Norwegian king in 1648, although they (at least locally in Norway) more commonly were known as Savolaksfinner (Savonian Finns), Rugfinner (Rye Finns) from their major crop, or notably Svedjefinner (Slash-and-burn Finns). The people themselves often used the term Finnskoginger (People from the forest of Finns).
    So they were Savolaksfinnar (in Swedish). But who were Savolaksfinnar?

    The origin of the Forest Finns lies in border skirmishes since the 13th century. The powers to the east of Finland, Novgorod and later Russia, constantly challenged the Swedish sovereignty of the often sparsely populated provinces of Eastern Finland. To secure their realm, the Swedish kings, notably Gustav Vasa (r. 1523–1560) and Eric XIV (r. 1560–1568), encouraged farmers to settle these vast wilderness regions, which in turn were used to the traditionally slash-and-burn agriculture.

    [I]These settlements faced several problems, from conflicts with the original populations of Sami people and Karelians to harsh conditions living in frontier lands during war times. [/I]The fact that slash-and-burn itself requires a relatively low human population density or a continuing supply of new "frontier" lands, also caused overpopulation and by the late 16th century forced migration by Forest Finns from Savonia (Swedish: Savolax) and Northern Häme (Tavastland).
    Savolaksfinnars are descendants of Orthodox Russian Karelians an Saami people, which can be proven by genetics. They multiplied by the slash and burn farming method, which was a hugely wasteful way of farming and destroyed large forest areas in East Finland and this destruction of nature was a main reason why Sweden sent Swedish Savolaksfinnars to America and gave then a temporaly outlaw status in Sweden.

    The main part of the Forest Finns moved north to Ostrobothnia (Österbotten) and Kainuu (Kajanaland), east towards northern Karelia (Karelen), and south towards Ingria (Ingermanland) (part of Sweden at the time, now part of Russia). However, an estimated 10–15% went westbound across the Baltic Sea in search of largely uninhabited lands best fit for their needs.
    The overpopulation led to destruction of eastern forests and forced them to migrate to Western Finland, Ostrobothnia.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Finns
    Last edited by Lemminkäinen; 07-29-2020 at 08:54 AM.

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    The Great Northern War helped Savolaksfinnars to move to Ostrobothnia. This war had a big impact on Ostrobothnian people. Ostrobothnia was a bone of contention of hundreds years between Sweden and Novgorod/Russia, because Russians needed seasides to extend their power closer Sweden. Ostrobothnians resisted 400 years. Lack of Baltic seasides was a signal of Russians' weakness. During the GNW Peter the Great gave an order to destroy the original Ostrobothnia and burn it into "black soil". The result was that tens of thousands Ostrobothnians left their homes and fled to Sweden, leaving their farms and towns empty to new people who came from east.
    Last edited by Lemminkäinen; 07-29-2020 at 09:13 AM.

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    As a side note, I would like add some details.
    Vikings are overrated. North Germanics are treated as Gods at modern times and portrayed a people to whom everyone must submit. That is not fair and led to crimes against humanity. We know that during the 20th century, Uralic Saami females were made infertile with castration policies in countries such as Sweden.

    From a historical point of view, that is also incorrect.

    We have 10th century Ibn Fadlan account on Viking Funerals.
    Vikings are taking an innocent girl, they get her drunk, she is ''turned and passed'' by men in what seems to be a quasi sexual orgy, before being burnt alive in the Viking ship with the late Ros Chieftain.




    It reminded me of the ''World Tour in 80 days'', one of my favorite childhood tales, where the English guy saves the Indian wife from being burnt alive during the incineration process of her dead husband.

    Point here is not offend Vikings but to remind that everyone has ups and downs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kundur View Post
    As a side note, I would like add some details.
    Vikings are overrated. North Germanics are treated as Gods at modern times and portrayed a people to whom everyone must submit. That is not fair and led to crimes against humanity. We know that during the 20th century, Uralic Saami females were made infertile with castration policies in countries such as Sweden.

    From a historical point of view, that is also incorrect.

    We have 10th century Ibn Fadlan account on Viking Funerals.
    Vikings are taking an innocent girl, they get her drunk, she is ''turned and passed'' by men in what seems to be a quasi sexual orgy, before being burnt alive in the Viking ship with the late Ros Chieftain.




    It reminded me of the ''World Tour in 80 days'', one of my favorite childhood tales, where the English guy saves the Indian wife from being burnt alive during the incineration process of her dead husband.

    Point here is not offend Vikings but to remind that everyone has ups and downs.
    OT.

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    Well, Swedes from Dalarna and Värmland (but there are Värmland Swedes with no Finnish ancestry as well) usually score similar results to far Northern Swedes. So they would have similar amounts of Saami ancestry, I figure.

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    Karelians were not angels. They fought against Finns as Russian allies 700 years from the 10th to 18th century robbing and raping. They finished it after the Finland was merged to Russia 1809 and started to be good Finns only after the Russian pogroms against them 100 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    Karelians were not angels. They fought against Finns as Russian allies 700 years from the 10th to 18th century robbing and raping. They finished it after the Finland was merged to Russia 1809 and started to be good Finns only after the Russian pogroms against them 100 years ago.
    Well, the Forest Finns were not always viewed in a positive light by the native Swedes and often shipped to colonies in what would become the USA. It was basically Sweden's equivalent to the Brits shipping their criminals over to Australia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Östsvensk View Post
    Well, Swedes from Dalarna and Värmland (but there are Värmland Swedes with no Finnish ancestry as well) usually score similar results to far Northern Swedes. So they would have similar amounts of Saami ancestry, I figure.
    The problem in this view that there is no way to sort out all ancient Finnish ancestry from the supposed Swedish ancestry. This is a bit different question, but good to observe too. Saami ancestry points out certain complex history in the whole Fennoscandinavia, but not original Finnish ancestry in Sweden. I have seen a Swedish study where your researchers ruled out around 20% of all Swedish samples due to a Finnish like transition on PCA. In my own project collected from the 23andme data the Finnish proportion (not Saami) among Swedish samples was bigger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Östsvensk View Post
    Well, the Forest Finns were not always viewed in a positive light by the native Swedes and often shipped to colonies in what would become the USA. It was basically Sweden's equivalent to the Brits shipping their criminals over to Australia.
    I can't answer on behalf of Swedes, but my understanding is that there was a kind of a Swedish movement against Forest Finns and expelling them to America was an administrative action to calm down people.

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