Xiongnu/Hunnu of Mongolia

[Yaglakar]

In an effort to characterize the people who composed the groups known as the Xiongnu, nuclear and whole mitochondrial DNA data were generated from the skeletal remains of 52 individuals excavated from the Tamir Ulaan Khoshuu (TUK) cemetery in Central Mongolia. This burial site, attributed to the Xiongnu period, was used from the first century BC to the first century AD. Kinship analyses were conducted using autosomal and Y-chromosomal DNA markers along with complete sequences of the mitochondrial genome. These analyses suggested close kin relationships between many individuals. Nineteen such individuals composed a large family spanning five generations. Within this family, we determined that a woman was of especially high status; this is a novel insight into the structure and hierarchy of societies from the Xiongnu period. Moreover, our findings confirmed that the Xiongnu had a strongly admixed mitochondrial and Y-chromosome gene pools and revealed a significant western component in the Xiongnu group studied. Using a fine-scale approach (haplotype instead of haplogroup-level information), we propose Scytho-Siberians as ancestors of the Xiongnu and Huns as their descendants.

https://link.springer.com/article/10...39-020-02209-4

[Annihilus]

nice!

[Chelubey]

Your opinion?

[Yaglakar]

Your opinion?

The results are from a single burial site. r1a strs most closely resemble the ancestors of Altaians and Tien-Shan Qirghiz, Arzhan Scythians and Andronovans (from molgen). I think Mongolia and south Siberia were "Turkicised" by proto-Turkic groups moving westward from roughly what is today Manchuria.

[Leto]

Three out of seven are said to have been racially European. Very interesting, considering the burial site is in Central Mongolia.

[Chelubey]

The results are from a single burial site. r1a strs most closely resemble the ancestors of Altaians and Tien-Shan Qirghiz, Arzhan Scythians and Andronovans (from molgen). I think Mongolia and south Siberia were "Turkicised" by proto-Turkic groups moving westward from roughly what is today Manchuria.

What archaeological / cultural and genetic arguments support your hypothesis?
The second question:
Were the Xiongnu originally turkic people who turkicized some Iranians, or were Xiongnu Iranians at start who were turkicized by some Turkic people?

[Yaglakar]

What archaeological / cultural and genetic arguments support your hypothesis?
The second question:
Were the Xiongnu originally turkic people who turkicized some Iranians, or were Xiongnu Iranians at start who were turkicized by some Turkic people?

1. Chinese loan words in 'proto-Turkic' aka Xiongnu tongue, including Turkic loanwords in old Chinese that made their way back into proto-Turkic in modified form. These words are preserved in both Common Turkic and Bulgar. This means that there was a constant exchange/flow, not a single isolated occurrence. We do not see such extensive borrowing during the time of 'Khaganates' meaning Proto-Turks used to live somewhere close to Chinese, Manchuria-Inner Mongolia, and of course they were not nomads, but eventually transformed, when they came in contact with Indo-Europeans.
2. Majority of toponyms in South Siberia are of non-Turkic origin. Important, because toponyms are resistant to change. The furthest western reach of the early 'proto-Turks' is probably Central Mongolia/Gansu
3. Manchuria is the place where proto-Turkic-Mongolic split from Korean, and soon after Turkic split from Mongolic, if i recall 7000 years ago according to Dybo.

Xiongnu are not early proto-Turks and not "original" Turks. Although, great majority of what comprised the Xiognu/Hunnu spoke Turkic or proto-Turkic if you will

[Leto]

1. Chinese loan words in 'proto-Turkic' aka Xiongnu tongue, including Turkic loanwords in old Chinese that made their way back into proto-Turkic in modified form. These words are preserved in both Common Turkic and Bulgar. This means that there was a constant exchange/flow, not a single isolated occurrence. We do not see such extensive borrowing during the time of 'Khaganates' meaning Proto-Turks used to live somewhere close to Chinese, Manchuria-Inner Mongolia, and of course they were not nomads, but eventually transformed, when they came in contact with Indo-Europeans.
2. Majority of toponyms in South Siberia are of non-Turkic origin. Important, because toponyms are resistant to change. The furthest western reach of the early 'proto-Turks' is probably Central Mongolia/Gansu
3. Manchuria is the place where proto-Turkic-Mongolic split from Korean, and soon after Turkic split from Mongolic, if i recall 7000 years ago according to Dybo.

Xiongnu are not early proto-Turks and not "original" Turks. Although, great majority of what comprised the Xiognu/Hunnu spoke Turkic or proto-Turkic if you will

Interesting info.

Offtopic: have you tried Global25? What is the best model for you? Would like to see your estimate Steppe and other percentages 'cause on both FTDNA and Gedmatch you scored a great deal of West Eurasian/European-like.

[Chelubey]

1. Chinese loan words in 'proto-Turkic' aka Xiongnu tongue, including Turkic loanwords in old Chinese that made their way back into proto-Turkic in modified form. These words are preserved in both Common Turkic and Bulgar.

Since some linguists drew attention to the Sino-Turkic linguistic connections and compiled a list of possible borrowings, this list has just been reduced. Dybo also shortened this list. Many Chinese loanwords in Proto-Türkic belong to the category "possible". If you have read this list, you should have noticed that a significant part of the possible Chinese loanwords into proto-Türkic language has no direct analogs in the Chinese language, but just has a Chinese etymology. It looks strange. Monosyllabic Chinese language without strict grammar allows any word of any language to be decomposed into Chinese words without any special phonetic, grammatical and semantic problems. Probably, the word "yaglakar" can also be decomposed into Chinese words with a similar meaning.

Majority of toponyms in South Siberia are of non-Turkic origin. Important, because toponyms are resistant to change. The furthest western reach of the early 'proto-Turks' is probably Central Mongolia/Gansu

Turkic toponomy is spread from Ukraine to China. In your opinion, the ancestral home of the Turkic peoples is where the greatest concentration of Turkic toponomy ?. Is this Manchuria?

Chinese loan words in 'proto-Turkic' aka Xiongnu tongue
...
Xiongnu are not early proto-Turks and not "original" Turks

Don't you see a contradiction in this?

[Chelubey]

Look at this example.
Pra-turkic *demur ‘iron ': runic. temir, MK temµr, Tuv. demir;
yak. timir; Chuv timər - from hypothetical dialectal form *diēr-mwu - from late. ancient chineese * diēt-mwyt - "iron thing".

In Chinese, "iron" sounded like diēt, not even "dier". "Dier" is a hypothetical dialectal form that is not recorded.
In addition, the Chinese hypothetical form for the proto-Turkic word *diēr-mwur seems to be a mechanical addition of two Chinese words and does not exist as a stable expression in the Chinese language. It is not clear why the pra-turkic people borrowed the hypothetical form "diēr-mwur" for iron instead of the simpler form "diet".
This is a very very difficult explanation based just on the assumption that the Turkic ancestral home was near China and the Chinese introduced the turkic people to metallurgy.
This is simpler versions suggesting an external source for the pra-turkic * temir - iron.
1. Sanskrit "tamra" - copper.
2. Pra-ie dhabhra - blacksmith.