Изследване на генетици от Харвард и архео

[Kaspias]

[PAGANE]

The text was taken from a video interview with Svetoslav Stamov
Hello, my name is Svetoslav Stamov, an anthropologist. I graduated from Duke University in the States, where I worked for a time as a bachelor's degree teacher. I am currently working for Dr. Reich's team at Harvard University in Bulgaria. And I help in another team, which is entirely Bulgarian, from Bulgarian archaeologists at the National Institute of Archeology with a museum in Sofia
First of all, I must point out that the initiator of the research is actually the journal "Bulgarian Science", which you publish. And I can say that in addition to popularizing science, this journal participates in a very serious international project, and in its role as initiator . As this project is expected to address unanswered questions related to Bulgarian history and past, which have remained open for two centuries, despite the efforts of generations of Bulgarian historians and archaeologists.
Namely - the origin of the proto-Bulgarians, the origin of the southern Slavs and the connection between the modern Bulgarians and the populations that lived before us on the Balkan Peninsula.
Този проект стартира като инициатива на вашето списание, за което много благодаря на вас и екипа, който издава списанието. По-късно към проекта се включиха български археолози от Националния археологически институт и в крайна сметка по една инициатива се свързахме с Лабораторията за генетични изследвания на д-р Дейвид Райх от Харвардския университет. Разбрахме се за последователността на 500 генетични проби от българското минало, събрани от костен материал от различни епохи, за да се изясни подробно, напълно и веднъж завинаги, ако такова нещо е възможно, произхода на съвременните българи, прото- Българи, славяни и връзката на съвременните българи. с древните популации на Балканския полуостров до бронзовата епоха.
The research is extremely large, and the sequencing of ancient DNA is a complex technological and very expensive process. Dr. Reich's genetic laboratory was extremely generous in providing full funding for the sequencing, which of course will be done by them and will cost approximately $ 5 million. All this is absolutely free for Bulgarian science and I can say that the contribution of the magazine "Bulgarian Science" to the science of Bulgaria is very, very real.
I must say that there is some background. Dr. Todor Chobanov and I took the initial steps of this study last year. We worked entirely voluntarily, but the genetic materials were collected from third places, not from Bulgaria, and our research was published a few months ago.
It focused on the connection between proto-Bulgarians from the First Kingdom and early Sarmatians from the Saltovo-Mayak culture. Our study was published in the Proceedings of the Bulgarian Academy of Science, sometime in the middle of this year. Rather, in this study, we were actually able to formulate the questions. That is, the first part of it was to understand what we do not know and what we want to know, we managed to formulate this more or less. The second part, however, had to answer the questions. Practically the entire staff of the Institute of Archeology participates here, headed by its director Dr. Hristo Popov and of course we have the support of Dr. David Reich and his laboratory at Harvard, as well as his desire to help Bulgarian history and archeology, to put their positions to the whole world in a very strong study to seek publication in the highest mediums of dissemination of scientific messages. I mean Science magazine (your namesake) and Nature magazine.


Има ли вече резултати, изпратени ли са, какво се случва?


Да. Така че първите резултати са налични, те са само от отстранения материал от два скелета. Единият - от края на Първото царство, от времето на Симеон Велики. И втората проба, която е изпратена, е от началото на Второто българско царство, от времето на Калоян и куманите.
So we already have the first result of a sequenced Bulgarian from the time of Simeon, but since everything is still under publication and research and we expect more results, I will not go into details about these first results, except for one detail. We found the Y-chromosome haplogroup, which is passed down through the paternal line, and it is quite surprising to some extent. The abbreviation under which it goes is Q2A1A2. This is the definition of the male chromosomal haplogroup, which is passed from father to son in all generations. Unlike autosomal DNA, it tells us only a small part of the story, but it also tells us something we do not know, but Bulgarian historians and archaeologists have suspected it for a very long time.


First, let me clarify that the skeleton is from the village of Samovodene, from a secondary burial in a Neolithic necropolis, which, however, was used as a tomb during the First Kingdom. With radiocarbon dating from Harvard, they found that the year of this man's death, with an accuracy of +/- 20 years - between 880 and 900, or the end of the reign of Boris and the beginning of the reign of Simeon (Golden Age). He was most likely a soldier or a high-ranking military leader, we are not entirely sure, but this is a militaristic funeral, so to speak.
Its haplogroup originates very far from Bulgaria - the area of ​​Lake Baikal. Which supports the idea that the original proto-Bulgarians, or more precisely their predecessors, some centuries ago or rather millennia ago, came here from the Baikal region. This is a haplogroup that is not found in Europe and very clearly suggests that a new nation appeared on the territory of Bulgaria in the early Middle Ages. It is probably about the proto-Bulgarians, without being completely sure, because at that time when this man lived, Bulgaria had already joined the remains of the Avar Haganate to itself, and the same haplogroup was identified by Hungarian scientists at a burial from the Avar Haganate era. at the Avar mound. So there is no guarantee that the person is proto-Bulgarian, but we will sequence another 200 and 500 samples and then we will get a much more complete picture.
But the initial results of this study confirm the old hypothesis of V. Zlatarski about the Far Eastern origin of at least some of the people in the proto-Bulgarian tribe. And how exactly the Far East is, so within the framework of the absurd, I can tell you that the first Indian to be identified in America, from the Clovis culture, is from the same haplogroup. It literally does not occur west of Lake Baikal, but only east of it and in America, it is a Paleo-Siberian population. 92% of the northern ketas, a small and miraculously surviving Yenisei group, are from this haplogroup. Like the haplogroup, or in fact the elements of the Ket language, they are also established in the old Xiongnu empire, which rivals China and lies in the territory north of it. So it may be directly or indirectly related to some extent to future European Huns.


В България има голяма дискусия за произхода на прабългарите - дали са прототурци, езикът им казва, че са прототурци, културата им показва, че са иранци и по-точно сармати. Докато хаплогрупата ни казва нещо трето. Поне в началото те са били палео-сибирска група, тъй като тази хаплогрупа не се среща нито при турците, нито в прототурките, тя се среща при по-древни народи, които са дори по-източни от тях и са по-свързани с американските Индийците, отколкото с европейските групи.
Знам, че звучи абсурдно, но това е първият резултат, който получаваме - групата е от източния бряг на езерото Байкал, където е възникнала през бронзовата епоха.
For mitochondrial DNA we have two results - what is transmitted through the maternal line is the haplogroup of mitochondrial DNA - U5A2A. This is a haplogroup found in every second Scythian mound in Eurasia. In antiquity so far, whatever has been sequenced to people with this haplogroup, they are only from Scythian mounds and from nowhere else. People from this group were found from Pazirik in Altai to Glinoe, which is located in Moldova.
Here I want to focus on Glinoe, which is an old Scythian culture in Moldova, which has formally disappeared, was destroyed at the end of the 2nd century BC. It is suspiciously close and stands in the way of the Asparuhov proto-Bulgarians, and is also within the scope of Old Great Bulgaria. There are 11 people sequenced by it, 6 of them are from exactly the same haplogroup, which we identified in both the First and the Second Bulgarian Kingdom. Let me emphasize once again that this haplogroup, of course, is still found in Bulgaria today. It has been entirely associated with the migration of Scythian groups since very ancient times, from 1500 BC. to about 2 century BC.


These are the first results, but I have to make a third reservation - this is a man from the end of the First Bulgarian Kingdom. We can talk about him as a person of potential proto-Bulgarian origin, but he may also be a Slav from those living on the territory of the Avar Haganate, possibly with an Avar father or great-grandfather, who may have been of Far Eastern origin. And this haplogroup, the Scythian, is also found in many of the modern Slavic ethnic groups, so I cannot rule out at the moment that we are actually talking about the skeleton of a Slavic warrior, or at least a member of the Slavic ethnic group from the two main constituents of the First Bulgarian Kingdom.
This is super interesting, how much new data can come out and how many new questions we can start asking ourselves, what really happened and how Bulgarians have something in common with the Indians in America.


The natives will not like it at all. *Laugh*
Yes, absolutely. But this is exactly what the new technologies give - new answers, after which we will certainly ask even more questions. But in your opinion, as a specialist, how many new tests need to be done to get a more or less normal picture of what happened to the proto-Bulgarians, or at least to have a clear idea of ​​where the proto-Bulgarians came from on this land, how many tribes, etc. .n.?


Well, the more, the better, it's supposed to be. But I think, on the order of what we agreed with Harvard, between 200 and 500 samples will be enough.
Сега искам да поясня, че изследването няма да се занимава само с прабългарите, въпреки че те са изключително централен въпрос. Той ще се занимава и с произхода на балканските славяни и с приноса на древни групи, живеещи на Балканите, като траките, илирите, пеоните, македонците и дори безименните групи от бронзовата епоха, които също са изключително интересни. Всъщност вече имаме първите резултати за тях. Досега това беше прабългарският участък, имаме първите резултати за секвенирани траки и за секвенирани евентуални хетски погребения и троянски погребения от територията на България.
But the results are still unpublished and the readers of Bulgarian Science are practically the first to learn about them. They are very interesting and at the moment I am very hesitant what part of them to share, because there is no publication and we are currently working very intensively on the issue. But we have results from the Ezero culture, from Southeastern Bulgaria, which is from the early Bronze Age and which seems to connect the people of this culture with the future Hittites and Trojans. This has been confirmed by archeology many times and has been known for at least half a century. But now we see the genetic parallels between the two. Some of these ancient groups from the Bronze Age in one way or another have survived to this day in our country Bulgarians, as we also carry a certain amount of blood and genes from these same people, perhaps in the range of between 5 and 10%, which connects us with the Hittites, ancient Anatolia and the Trojans. There is a huge processing of the results before they are published, but among them there are huge curiosities from now on. One of them is from the necropolis in Merichleri ​​from the Early Bronze Age and in another necropolis in Tsaribrod (the older of the two), these are mound necropolises from the Yamna culture in the Caucasus, of people who migrated here in Bulgaria and connected between you are. They came from the haplogroup R1A, namely Z-93, which is the haplogroup again of the Scythian, but more of the Indo-Aryan tribes, the future Indo-Aryans, who later conquered India. But one of the tribes of the Yamna culture seems to have strayed and arrived in the Balkans instead of going to India. And so by chance, because archaeologists and geneticists have chosen between 260 burial mounds from this period, they have chosen only 3-4 and have come across exactly this extremely ancient group, which is from the time before the Indo-European group was divided into Iranians, Indians and Slavs, they were still one people at the time with the same genomes. And yes, one of these groups is among what we call Thracian tribes, but these are not Thracians. We have results from both the Early Iron Age and the Late Bronze Age, which are possibly Thracian, but I will keep them a secret at this stage, as I do not want to provoke speculation.


От средната бронзова епоха имаме и много интересни резултати, които от своя страна свързват населението на днешна България с бъдещите микенци. България през бронзовата епоха е съкровищница от гени, както и съкровищница от археологически материали. От генетична гледна точка тук можем да видим траекториите на много интересни популации, най-абсурдните са индоарийците, но също и микенските гърци, които трябва да са пристигнали от Микена отнякъде. Възможните им траектории са или през Мала Азия, или през Балканите. На този етап те сякаш са преминали през България, живели тук в продължение на няколко века, след това се спускали на юг, където са се смесили с хората от минойския Крит, за да създадат ахейската и микенската култура и първата гръко-говоряща цивилизация в Егейския регион ,
There are many more results, but as I said, the big focus is on the proto-Bulgarians and the Slavs. One more thing I forgot to add - we have another sequenced proto-Bulgarian, who, however, is one of the Alcek Bulgarians in Hungary. And here I hasten to say that it is in some contradiction with the haplogroup from Baikal, but this man is 90% identical to modern Bulgarians and is associated with the Alans of the Saltovo-Mayak culture, which suggests that this proto-Bulgarian tribe left a long time ago. from Lake Baikal. We don't even know if they started there with the ethnonym Bulgarians or some other. But in the Caucasus it has mixed with Alanian, Sarmatian and even Caucasian groups and the core, the core of the proto-Bulgarians, at least judging by this skeleton of an Alcek Bulgarian, this core is not from Baikal. There is a nuance there that cannot be mistaken because it connects us to the Indians. But let's say so - 9/10 of the population history of this tribe has passed in the Caucasus region, in the Sarmatian-Alanian and Caucasian environment. For me, the most interesting thing was that this man is almost indistinguishable from modern Bulgarians, which suggests that either the proto-Bulgarians mixed with the Slavs in Hungary or they are actually a much larger component of the modern Bulgarian nation than we think they are. they were some small tribe. And when I look at a proto-Bulgarian from the 6th or 7th century, how close he is to modern Bulgarians in terms of population genetics, this tells me something that many others believe that proto-Bulgarians have a very significant genetic influence in modern Bulgarians and we are in the first place proto-Bulgarians. But this is something very preliminary and has not been confirmed by the results of the First Bulgarian Kingdom, it is from Hungary. We have not yet analyzed the autosomal DNA from here, which I personally expect to say the same, but we must see it first.
Lots of interesting things, really answering questions that everyone asked themselves when they were in school or university, but here comes modern science that has the capacity to answer a lot of questions. I thank you for the detailed answers, although there are still many materials that need to be processed. When to expect the first major publications in Science, Nature?


2021 will be the earliest. But I can assure you that you will learn them before that and life and health we will be able to comment on them even before they appeared in Nature and Science.
I thank you for the interview and I want to take this opportunity to address Bulgarian archaeologists and Bulgarian history buffs. We need help, that's one thing. The second thing is that Bulgarian history is full of unresolved issues related to different populations and historical events. Friends and fellow citizens, if any of you have an unresolved issue that you want to address, now is the time to do so. The situation is extremely favorable to solve as many issues as possible from the point of view of population genetics. Sequencing an ancient genome costs $ 10,000, and the lab, as part of the project, will do it for free, as long as it has something to work with. If anyone has an idea or concept for something that can be proven by genetics, please contact Petar Teodosiev (petar@nauka.bg) or me to discuss things.
Знам, че в България никой няма достатъчно пари, но ако някой мисли, че е в състояние да помогне за финансирането на проекта от българска страна - повече финансиране означава повече последователност на скелети от България и повече отговори. Чувствайте се свободни да го направите, това е прозорец, който е отворен само три месеца и е удължен до Нова година, стига да могат да се правят последователности. През това време можем да проследим основно всичко, което някой поиска от Античността, но да адресираме конкретен исторически проблем. Вярвам, че има много историци и археолози, които имат данни къде са скелетите и как трябва да бъдат взети проби, какво се случи и кои сме, откъде идваме, защо сме тук. И вярвам, че много хора си задават тези въпроси и биха могли да използват прозореца, който Харвард дава сега.


Изказвания Светослав Стамов и български археолози в сътрудничество с генетици от Харвардския университет изследват произхода на българите - във видеото представяме първите резултати. Българската научна организация е НИМ (Национален археологически институт с музей при БАН), а от американска страна са професор Дейвид Райх от лабораторията по археогенетика в Харвард и известният археолог д-р Дейвид Антъни със съдействието на Светослав Стамов.

[Kaspias]

.

Thank you!

[bained]

https://sedemosmi.tv/production/%D1%...e5Y8LEhP4JUh1k

New interview. Some highlights:
You can see that the medieval dude was Q1a2 and autosomal was related to Saltovo-Mayaki. 40% steppe like andronovo and bmac (sogdian as the guy says) other 60% Caucasus like. High chance to be Avar. Probably 1 tribe migrated from Iranian area, then mixed with another in Northern Caucasus, Alans. 2 mtDNA - U5, same as the previous Scythian samples.
Absolutely no genetic change since 10th century.
First results show that modern Bulgarians can be modeled as 40% Bulgar and 50% Southern slav, which are different than eastern, central or western slav. These slavs were already mixed with romans and locals, probably coming from Pannonia.
Some sneak peaks from southeastern Bulgaria thracians: all E-V13.

[Ion Basescul]

So there is no guarantee that the person is proto-Bulgarian, but we will sequence another 200 and 500 samples and then we will get a much more complete picture.

The heck, this study will be massive. Will it be broken down into multiple phases/papers?

[bained]

The heck, this study will be massive. Will it be broken down into multiple phases/papers?

Already 80 samples are sequenced. All sequencing done by the end of October, with possibility to test extra samples if archeologist provide crucial samples. 20-30 samples for Thracian paper will be first. Harvard is more interested to solve the Indo-european route. First results show that mycenean and hitites were living in the area of Bulgaria for 4-500 years before moving to greece to become myceneans and hitities. They are trying to solve if they came from caucasus or they came from pontic steppe. Paper expected 2021 with at least 200 medieval samples for Bulgars. Thats the main focus for the Bulgarian team.

[PAGANE]

[QUOTE = Ion Basescul; 6862101] По дяволите, това проучване ще бъде масово. Дали ще бъде разбита на няколко фази / документи? [/ ЦИТАТ]
Possible. At this point, this is the only information provided. Hopefully, October, November may reveal shortly before the official information in the scientific journal

[bained]

Another hit on the slavs are I2a1b meme bulgaria-early-bronze-age.jpg

[Peterski]

Very interesting thanks.

[bained]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzAL0ssXwgc

Stuff is getting spicy. Some results were shown at the end. And more clear but older sheet can be found in their official website:

https://proizhod.nauka.bg/2020/10/06/news/