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Thread: Is there such a thing as "benign fascism"?

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    Default Is there such a thing as "benign fascism"?

    As preposterous and oxymoronic as many would find it, I do think there have been occasional examples:

    Salazar. Helped modernise Portugal significantly through a massive schoolbuilding programme and a concurrent massive fall in illiteracy and poverty. Eventually died of illness, and his regime fell a few years later due to misguided and daft colonial wars in Africa.

    Peron. Vastly improved the lives of Argentina's working classes - for a while poverty and unemployment became minimal in Argentina. Eventually overthrown by the military who became increasingly antagonised by him, along with the church and oligarchy.
    Last edited by Tooting Carmen; 08-12-2020 at 12:40 AM.

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    Nowadays fascism means you are not liberal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blondie View Post
    Nowadays fascism means you are not liberal.
    Which is a silly and nonsensical definition. My value-neutral definition of fascism is "an authoritarian and nationalistic hybrid of both capitalism and socialism".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooting Carmen View Post
    As preposterous and oxymoronic as many would find it, I do think there have been occasional examples:

    Salazar. Helped modernise Portugal significantly through a massive schoolbuilding programme and a concurrent massive fall in illiteracy and poverty. Eventually fell due to misguided and daft colonial wars in Africa.

    Peron. Vastly improved the lives of Argentina's working classes - for a while poverty and unemployment became minimal in Argentina. Eventually overthrown by the military who became increasingly antagonised by him, along with the church and oligarchy.
    Salazar didn't fell, he died in 1970 (he was infact hill since 1968 and not the defacto ruler for the last 2 years) and the regime endured 4 more years, some historians argue that with Salazar the regime would have lasted much longer and so the colonial war etc and even possibly no decolonization at all (that was a consequence of the fell of the regime). We will never know but it's probable, the regime was very centralised on his figure and capabilities.

    I already gave you my opinion via Pm, there's no contradiction, authoritarian regimes can be benign as long the power is used as a transitory/national emergence instrument, the Roman Republic instituted the figure of the dictator for that purpose. As soon as possible a truly benign dictatorship will give the power to the people, and there is where most fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastianus Rex View Post
    Salazar didn't fell, he died in 1970 (he was infact hill since 1968 and not the defacto ruler for the last 2 years) and the regime endured 4 more years, some historians argue that with Salazar the regime would have lasted much longer and so the colonial war etc and even possibly no decolonization at all (that was a consequence of the fell of the regime). We will never know but it's probable, the regime was very centralised on his figure and capabilities.

    I already gave you my opinion via Pm, there's no contradiction, authoritarian regimes can be benign as long the power is used as a transitory/national emergence instrument, the Roman Republic instituted the figure of the dictator for that purpose. As soon as possible a truly benign dictatorship will give the power to the people, and there is where most fail.
    It is true he perpetuated himself in power for too long, but (1) Does that negate his regime's social and economic achievements? (2) Domestically, when compared to neighbouring Spain (and many other regimes), his regime's repression was quite small-scale, wasn't it?

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    oxymoron indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooting Carmen View Post
    Which is a silly and nonsensical definition. My value-neutral definition of fascism is "an authoritarian and nationalistic hybrid of both capitalism and socialism".
    Indeed, far right =fascism was a propanda campaign invented by the marxist to distance themselves and label them out of the socialist family. Fascism is socialist ASF and so is much of their popular support. It's not the bourgeoisie voting on those "far right" parties neither marching on the streets in uniforms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastianus Rex View Post
    Indeed, far right =fascism was a propanda campaign invented by the marxist to distance themselves and label them out of the socialist family. Fascism is socialist ASF and so is much of their popular support. It's not the bourgeoisie voting on those "far right" parties neither marching on the streets in uniforms.
    Well not entirely - fascism still allows for a lot more private ownership in the economy than Marxism does. Plus fascism recognises and even celebrates human inequality in a way that Marxism putatively does not. That said, in addition to what you said, what is even more tragicomic is when Marxists claim that the real problem with the USSR, Maoist China etc is that they "didn't really practice Communism"! Funny how nobody claims that e.g. South Africa "didn't really practice Apartheid". (Strictly speaking, there is actually a case for that - when the system first began its motto was "separate but equal", whereas of course it was actually separate and extremely unequal).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooting Carmen View Post
    It is true he perpetuated himself in power for too long, but (1) Does that negate his regime's social and economic achievements? (2) Domestically, when compared to neighbouring Spain (and many other regimes), his regime's repression was quite small-scale, wasn't it?
    1. Of course not, but a bit more time is needed for a true objective and unbiased analisys of his rule. Still too many biased and emotionally/ideologically motivated opinions.

    2. I don't know much how repressive was Spain under Franco, some people argue it wasn't much passing the first stage (15-20 years) of the regime, but I guess it was proportional to the level of internal menace, don't forget Spain had a very bloody civil war with lots of very radical marxist and anarchist groups, still today the left in Spain is considerably more radical than here.

    In Portugal there was no such degree of opposition and communist groups were marginal, there was never the risk of a civil war vs marxist factions, so obviously there was no need to take too harsh measures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tooting Carmen View Post
    Well not entirely - fascism still allows for a lot more private ownership in the economy than Marxism does. Plus fascism recognises and even celebrates human inequality in a way that Marxism putatively does not. That said, in addition to what you said, what is even more tragicomic is when Marxists claim that the real problem with the USSR, Maoist China etc is that they "didn't really practice Communism"! Funny how nobody claims that e.g. South Africa "didn't really practice Apartheid". (Strictly speaking, there is actually a case for that - when the system first began its motto was "separate but equal", whereas of course it was actually separate and extremely unequal).
    Of course there are nuances and different versions of. Look at communist China now, they allow private ownership and capitalistic exploitation was incorporated in their version.

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