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Thread: Genome Diversity in Ukraine

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by vbnetkhio View Post
    this makes sense.

    but proto-Slavs were something like 80% Baltic BA/IA + 20% some south-west shifts. so i doubt g25 can tell them apart accurately. even the more advanced tools have this problem.
    That's true. However there is good reason to believe their Baltic input is real - just check map of Baltic hydronyms in Russia. Typically Baltic R1a Z280 subclades like Z92 are widespread among eastern Slavs.
    Also lot of their N1c lineages belong to typically Baltic rather than Finnic clades.


    Baltic cultures 600-200 BC

    spread of Baltic hydronyms


    These people didn't dissapear, they merged with early Slavic settlers but unlike in south Slavs for example it's harder to distinguish east slavs pre-Slavic blood because Balts and Slavs are closest related people and very similar genetically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by opticalillusion View Post
    Dont know about West Ukraine but I know in Southern Ukraine Romanians and some Orthodox Albanians who fought in the wars against Turks were permitted to settle in order to colonize it.
    Also Bulgarians. And what is interesting before 1941 many German colonies were there too. There was even one Swedish village https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammalsvenskby

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion Basescul View Post
    They gathered 97 samples from all over the country. There is a gradient.

    Are these samples publicly available? It seems they over-sampled South-West parts of Ukraine (including Zakarpattia) once again.

    How about making Ukrainian national average? In my opinion, for example in Global25 Western Ukrainians are over-represented:

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6862270

    Currently existing GEDmatch averages for Ukraine, also skew in favour of Western Ukrainians.

    This is a collection of 28 Belarusians from Minsk & 28 Ukrainians from Kiev, academic samples, but they are not in Global25 yet:

    Eurogenes K15:

    Code:
    Belarusian_Minsk_1,19.89,16.97,33.82,20.59,4.6,0.25,0,1.02,0.94,1.01,0,0,0.1,0.8,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_2,21.05,21.19,35.44,16.66,0.9,2.48,0,0,1.03,0,0,0.71,0.41,0,0.12
    Belarusian_Minsk_3,15.55,19.55,30.68,24.26,2.44,0.83,4.66,0.96,0.51,0,0.51,0,0.03,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_4,17.11,15.11,36.94,19.34,3.23,3.07,3.05,0.65,0,0.59,0.29,0,0.64,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_5,18.59,15.15,30.84,25.33,5.44,1.19,0,1.15,1.07,0,0.17,0.5,0.22,0.35,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_6,18.77,15.72,36.06,20.85,3.26,1.19,1.29,0.42,2.06,0,0,0,0,0.23,0.15
    Belarusian_Minsk_7,19.12,16.33,34.09,20.44,3.6,0.48,3.98,0,0.54,0,0,1.07,0.35,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_8,23.8,12.67,31.7,20.02,3.18,3.63,0,1.78,2.77,0,0,0.1,0.35,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_9,16.81,17.08,34.9,17.53,4.49,4.47,1.91,0,0.79,0,1.92,0,0,0,0.12
    Belarusian_Minsk_11,18.33,17.68,28.81,23.03,4.52,4.59,0.72,0,1.24,0,0,1.08,0,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_12,17.49,20.08,31.41,23.97,1.64,4.71,0,0,0.03,0.1,0,0,0.25,0.33,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_13,20.84,13.53,33.03,18.75,7.33,2.44,2.66,0,0.2,0,0.04,0.29,0,0.58,0.31
    Belarusian_Minsk_14,17.17,18.48,29.73,23.18,6.52,2.59,1.8,0,0.53,0,0,0,0,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_15,16.15,16.71,34.7,23.78,5.6,0.39,0,0,2.57,0,0,0.09,0,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_16,21.73,16.14,29.35,20.79,3.93,6.25,0.27,0,0,0,0,0.68,0.68,0,0.17
    Belarusian_Minsk_17,18.24,15.27,35.73,21.57,3.34,4.17,0,0,0.02,0,0,0.21,1.43,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_18,17.32,16.06,35.75,22.14,4.16,1.64,0.63,0,1.78,0,0,0.33,0,0.19,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_19,13.73,15.09,31.99,25,6.26,5.19,1.22,0,0,0,0,0.12,0.36,1.03,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_20,19.65,13.51,32.25,22.27,4.23,6.43,0,0.04,1.34,0,0,0.28,0,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_21,23.78,11.11,32.2,21.17,6.96,2.72,0,0,0,0,0,0.99,1.07,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_22,14.16,20.89,34.51,22.76,3.16,1.46,0,0,0.73,0.17,0,1.7,0,0,0.46
    Belarusian_Minsk_23,19.14,16.65,32.98,19.01,2.44,4.16,2.57,0,0,0,1.52,0,0.68,0,0.85
    Belarusian_Minsk_25,21.53,18.87,30.56,22.42,2.71,2.62,0,0,0,0,0,0.83,0.47,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_26,23.56,10.55,31.89,20.32,8.18,0.72,3.55,0,0,0.06,0.09,0.45,0,0,0.63
    Belarusian_Minsk_27,19.09,11.91,29.15,24.64,8.4,3.2,0,1.71,0.65,0,0.96,0.29,0,0,0
    Belarusian_Minsk_28,18.92,15.38,29.64,20.23,8.79,2.36,1.91,0,0,0,1.92,0,0.13,0,0.72
    Belarusian_Minsk_Avg(n=26),18.90,16.06,32.62,21.54,4.59,2.82,1.16,0.30,0.72,0.07,0.29,0.37,0.28,0.14,0.14
    Belarusian_Minsk_10_outlier,11.56,17.8,24.97,18.86,8.95,6.28,8.88,0.4,0.86,1.04,0.1,0,0,0,0.3
    Belarusian_Minsk_24_outlier,11.45,19.41,20.89,17.27,7.03,12.22,5.73,1.49,1.79,0.27,1.47,0.27,0,0.71,0
    Eurogenes K15:

    Code:
    Ukrainian_Kiev_1,20.5,12.08,30.33,17.74,7.66,4.18,6.19,0.7,0,0,0,0,0.41,0,0.22
    Ukrainian_Kiev_2,16.04,17.2,27.56,18.33,7.01,4.04,4.08,4.51,0,0.93,0,0.31,0,0,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_3,21.59,9.87,29.83,22.88,6.63,7.1,0.19,0,0.34,0.43,0.64,0,0.5,0,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_4,19.29,17.35,30.54,20.87,1.11,7.08,0.21,0.11,0,0,1.79,1.04,0,0.61,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_5,15.8,17.65,28.02,21.53,7.06,3.76,2.49,2.37,0,0,0,0,0,0.48,0.86
    Ukrainian_Kiev_6,18.49,18.35,31.42,18.1,4.52,5.4,0,0.11,2.06,0,0,0.77,0.19,0,0.59
    Ukrainian_Kiev_7,17.1,14.93,28.21,23.51,5.8,2.54,2.85,0,1.15,0,1.88,1.16,0.87,0,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_8,21.72,11.86,31.08,18.77,5.75,5.5,0.72,2.61,0.4,0.4,1.19,0,0,0.01,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_9,16.09,18.5,34.59,18.16,3.18,5.55,2.82,0.14,0,0,0,0,0.98,0,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_10,21.95,13.11,31.69,17.74,5.95,5.81,0,0,0.95,0,0,0.35,1.69,0,0.76
    Ukrainian_Kiev_11,21.73,16.65,25.36,17.02,6.1,3.59,4.49,0,0.69,0,2.71,0.86,0.36,0,0.45
    Ukrainian_Kiev_12,18.45,19,26.47,17.14,6.48,5.27,2.49,1.97,0.71,0,1.14,0.18,0.67,0,0.03
    Ukrainian_Kiev_13,18.63,10.74,31.92,20.29,7.7,3.99,3.65,1.54,0,0,0,1.37,0.16,0,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_15,13.97,18.39,32.91,22.3,4.9,4.48,0,0.72,0.33,0,0,1.3,0,0,0.69
    Ukrainian_Kiev_16,15.52,19.83,28.56,18.59,5.89,3.49,5.89,0,0,1.52,0,0,0,0,0.72
    Ukrainian_Kiev_18,16.66,17.43,32.97,20.86,5.19,2.17,3.32,0,0,0,0.39,0,0.38,0,0.64
    Ukrainian_Kiev_21,18.99,13.85,30.98,17.99,6.11,4,4.38,1.7,1.04,0.55,0.41,0,0,0,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_22,19.38,15.85,29.28,20.33,5.74,4.11,3.98,0.8,0,0,0,0.36,0,0.18,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_24,13.44,17.5,31.09,20.87,3.32,7.28,4.36,0,1.33,0,0.81,0,0.01,0,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_25,20.63,13.36,31.24,21.24,4.77,4.03,1.11,1.27,1.31,0,0,0.98,0,0,0.05
    Ukrainian_Kiev_26,18.44,13.97,29.45,21.91,7.34,6.07,1.18,1.19,0,0.45,0,0,0,0,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_27,22.93,15.67,27.95,18.78,6.58,5.81,0.9,0,0.39,0,0,0.07,0.52,0,0.4
    Ukrainian_Kiev_28,14.63,16.93,31.66,18.35,8.06,4.1,2.35,1.57,0,0,0,1.36,0,0.32,0.69
    Ukrainian_Kiev_Avg(n=23),18.35,15.66,30.14,19.71,5.78,4.75,2.51,0.93,0.47,0.19,0.48,0.44,0.29,0.07,0.27
    Ukrainian_Kiev_14_outlier,21.88,15.05,23.92,15.29,12.15,3.78,3.59,1.27,1.44,0,0.53,0.04,1.06,0,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_17_outlier,25.06,15.19,27.81,16.62,8.44,2.18,0,0.84,1.74,0,0.76,0.35,1,0,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_23_outlier,19.59,14.06,25.81,16.66,7.66,7.56,6.65,0.18,1.02,0,0,0,0.22,0.58,0
    Ukrainian_Kiev_19_mixed,14.87,6.79,22.89,28.49,5.18,6.34,0,0.64,0.16,0.51,11.87,1.17,0,0,1.08
    Ukrainian_Kiev_20_mixed,20.05,11.48,22.43,18.12,3.49,16.6,3.35,0.4,1.82,0,1.13,0,0,0.48,0.63
    See how they compare to existing K15 averages, as you can see Kiev Ukrainians appear rather eastern-shifted here:





    From Kiev average I removed 2 mixed with Tatars/Kavkaz and 3 too western/southern shifted compared to the rest.
    Last edited by Peterski; 08-24-2020 at 02:20 AM.

  4. #24
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    Also here is for example a Western Ukrainian with GEDCOM pedigree with both parents from Volhynia, I trust this result more than academic samples from Volhynia (from Estonian scientists) which look like they are mixed with Volhynian Poles/Czechs/Germans:

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6862276

    Population
    North_Sea 18.69 Pct
    Atlantic 15.46 Pct
    Baltic 32.29 Pct
    Eastern_Euro 19.61 Pct
    West_Med 5.95 Pct
    West_Asian 4.70 Pct
    East_Med 0.28 Pct
    Red_Sea 0.27 Pct
    South_Asian -
    Southeast_Asian -
    Siberian 1.46 Pct
    Amerindian 0.76 Pct
    Oceanian 0.52 Pct
    Northeast_African -
    Sub-Saharan -

    ^^^
    This Volhynian Ukrainian from GEDmatch is actually close to academic Polish samples from Lublin Voivodeship:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lublin_Voivodeship

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 32.29
    2 Eastern_Euro 19.61
    3 North_Sea 18.69
    4 Atlantic 15.46
    5 West_Med 5.95
    6 West_Asian 4.7
    7 Siberian 1.46
    8 Amerindian 0.76
    9 Oceanian 0.52
    10 East_Med 0.28
    11 Red_Sea 0.27

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Russian_Smolensk 4.18
    2 Belorussian 4.42
    3 Estonian_Polish 4.55
    4 Southwest_Russian 4.58
    5 Ukrainian_Belgorod 4.83
    6 Polish 5.92
    7 Lithuanian 5.96
    8 South_Polish 6.29
    9 Ukrainian 6.34
    10 Ukrainian_Lviv 6.82
    11 Estonian 8.58
    12 Kargopol_Russian 10.11
    13 Erzya 11.44
    14 Croatian 11.58
    15 Moldavian 13.54
    16 East_Finnish 13.67
    17 Finnish 14.34
    18 Hungarian 14.82
    19 Southwest_Finnish 15.46
    20 Austrian 16.51

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 71.9% Lithuanian + 28.1% Moldavian @ 2.99
    2 68.7% Lithuanian + 31.3% Croatian @ 3.14
    3 54.7% Lithuanian + 45.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.39
    4 52% Lithuanian + 48% South_Polish @ 3.43
    5 52.3% Lithuanian + 47.7% Ukrainian @ 3.46
    6 68.1% Russian_Smolensk + 31.9% Lithuanian @ 3.52
    7 81.9% Lithuanian + 18.1% Romanian @ 3.54
    8 67.2% Estonian_Polish + 32.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.56
    9 83.2% Lithuanian + 16.8% Bulgarian @ 3.61
    10 89.3% Lithuanian + 10.7% Nogay @ 3.63
    11 69.7% Belorussian + 30.3% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.64
    12 80.9% Lithuanian + 19.1% Serbian @ 3.67
    13 60.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 39.8% Lithuanian @ 3.72
    14 68.4% Belorussian + 31.6% Ukrainian @ 3.73
    15 91.8% Lithuanian + 8.2% Sardinian @ 3.73
    16 87.7% Lithuanian + 12.3% North_Italian @ 3.74
    17 66.7% Estonian_Polish + 33.3% Ukrainian @ 3.78
    18 88.4% Lithuanian + 11.6% Tuscan @ 3.8
    19 91.1% Lithuanian + 8.9% Balkar @ 3.8
    20 94.8% Belorussian + 5.2% Nogay @ 3.84

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    Availability
    They are supposed to be, but I haven't seen the data released yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    Are these samples publicly available? It seems they over-sampled South-West parts of Ukraine (including Zakarpattia) once again.

    How about making Ukrainian national average? In my opinion, for example in Global25 Western Ukrainians are over-represented:

    Currently existing GEDmatch averages for Ukraine, also skew in favour of Western Ukrainians.

    This is a collection of 28 Belarusians from Minsk & 28 Ukrainians from Kiev, academic samples, but they are not in Global25 yet:
    .
    You asked Davidski? I think at least those Ukrs are added http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled.htm.
    Probably without few outliers
    Code:
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian1,0.125205,0.13405,0.062979,0.052649,0.040623,0.015618,0.009165,0.007846,-0.003477,-0.016401,0.000325,-0.007943,0.016055,0.017891,-0.01045,0.003713,0.011865,0.00152,0.000377,-0.003001,-0.004991,-0.006183,0.004807,0.000843,-0.000599
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian10,0.126344,0.118817,0.063733,0.067184,0.036007,0.017012,0.00611,0.01223,-0.010226,-0.020046,-0.000812,-0.005995,0.012339,0.019818,-0.008822,-0.003978,0.005346,-0.0019,-0.000377,0.005878,-0.009483,0.000618,0.006532,0.000241,0.009221
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian11,0.12862,0.122879,0.061471,0.052649,0.037545,0.018128,0.00752,0.014076,0.003272,-0.01713,0.001299,-0.004946,0.010555,0.026148,-0.002579,-0.003315,-0.006519,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.002876,-0.006239,-0.004699,0.001602,-0.00241,-0.001437
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian12,0.130897,0.126941,0.071653,0.056848,0.032314,0.013666,0.008695,0.006,0.001636,-0.020228,-0.001786,-0.01109,0.015461,0.0139,-0.019679,0.012066,0.025034,-0.004434,-0.000503,0.004877,-0.004742,-0.001237,0.008011,-0.007953,0.001197
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian13,0.125205,0.127957,0.071653,0.062662,0.040623,0.027889,0.00658,0.004615,-0.007567,-0.024784,0.000325,-0.006294,0.016353,0.033442,-0.012079,-0.015115,-0.013299,-0.004434,0.006913,-0.001251,-0.009109,-0.00272,0.005423,-0.011447,-0.001916
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian14,0.125205,0.121864,0.06675,0.044897,0.042469,0.024542,0.00376,0.012692,-0.003068,-0.021139,-0.00682,-0.005845,0.012636,0.024084,-0.012758,-0.008353,-0.009127,0.000253,0.001383,-0.002626,-0.013351,-0.00371,0.00493,-0.005784,-0.002874
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian15,0.132035,0.118817,0.070144,0.064277,0.044931,0.018407,0.017626,0.014538,0.006136,-0.01713,0.000162,-0.002398,0.013974,0.020781,-0.010858,0.002519,0.017732,0.00076,0.005782,0.006753,-0.010357,0.000989,0.008504,0.006507,-0.002395
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian16,0.127482,0.12491,0.076933,0.063631,0.040007,0.019801,0.007285,0.016384,-0.000205,-0.016948,0.000812,-0.015436,0.018731,0.026974,-0.014522,-0.009281,-0.0103,0.002914,0.010433,-0.007128,-0.006988,0.004204,0.006039,-0.008676,0.005868
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian17,0.135449,0.120848,0.061848,0.051357,0.040315,0.022311,0.0094,0.016845,0.001023,-0.020957,-0.003248,-0.009591,0.013974,0.022295,-0.010722,0.006629,0.0103,-0.00038,0.007039,-5e-04,-0.000624,-0.007172,0.00949,-0.011688,-0.004311
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian18,0.137726,0.127957,0.072407,0.055556,0.035083,0.019243,0.011986,0.008769,-0.001841,-0.023326,-0.001461,-0.007643,0.014717,0.016652,-0.012486,0.001591,0.012778,-0.002027,0.004148,-0.005253,-0.006364,-0.001731,0.008381,-0.011327,-0.006945
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian19,0.134311,0.120848,0.061848,0.055233,0.028313,0.023427,0.010575,0.016384,-0.005727,-0.019864,-0.006658,-0.007493,0.022448,0.030139,-0.004343,-0.008618,-0.010431,-0.000253,0.008422,0.00025,-0.008735,-0.01051,0.002342,-0.00253,-0.002395
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian2,0.137726,0.12491,0.062602,0.042959,0.041854,0.021475,0.00564,0.012923,0.001227,-0.022597,0.004384,-0.008692,0.009663,0.024497,-0.011129,-0.007823,-0.007823,0.004561,0.011187,-0.004627,-0.008735,-0.013107,0.004683,-0.003374,-0.000838
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian20,0.129758,0.120848,0.069013,0.063631,0.033545,0.03012,0.00752,0.007384,-0.007976,-0.020593,0.005359,-0.012589,0.021704,0.023396,-0.006786,0.012596,0.015776,0.000887,0.003142,0.008254,-0.009234,-0.00643,0.006409,-0.00253,0.001317
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian21,0.137726,0.127957,0.064111,0.052326,0.0437,0.023985,0.01034,0.01523,-0.003681,-0.027153,-0.002436,-0.006594,0.012042,0.025047,-0.016015,-0.004641,-0.002738,0.003421,0.003268,-0.003377,-0.010357,-0.006059,0.001849,-0.005663,-0.00455
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian22,0.130897,0.128972,0.06675,0.060401,0.045239,0.023427,0.008225,0.006461,-0.00634,-0.018406,-0.00065,-0.005095,0.007582,0.015827,-0.011536,0.011535,0.024643,0.003927,0.000377,0.001751,-0.000374,-0.002226,0.004314,0.000964,-0.002395
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian23,0.125205,0.125926,0.06675,0.053941,0.040623,0.025379,0.00329,0.005307,0.000614,-0.021686,-0.004709,-0.007044,0.013825,0.024634,-0.015744,-0.008486,-0.00352,0.002914,0.007542,0.003001,-0.006613,-0.01286,0.01442,-0.005784,-0.004431
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian3,0.136588,0.116786,0.071276,0.059755,0.039084,0.023148,0.017156,0.010846,-0.008999,-0.030069,-0.001786,-0.009292,0.016055,0.013625,-0.015336,0.007955,0.024251,0.000507,0.000377,0.005503,0.001747,-0.006183,0.002465,-0.010363,-0.000838
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian4,0.132035,0.11577,0.076555,0.064923,0.024928,0.02259,0.015511,0.008769,-0.001227,-0.03098,0.006171,-0.010641,0.017393,0.022708,-0.013979,-0.009016,-0.010822,0.000253,0.001508,0.003502,-0.000125,-0.005812,0.008134,-0.007953,0.003592
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian5,0.121791,0.141159,0.067505,0.049419,0.039392,0.017291,0.016921,0.010153,-0.002045,-0.019864,-0.003085,-0.001798,0.017245,0.026561,-0.016694,-0.01127,-0.008866,-0.002154,0.00176,-0.005753,-0.014474,-0.003339,-0.003697,-0.002289,0.007664
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian6,0.126344,0.121864,0.064111,0.0646,0.036622,0.024542,0.00705,0.01223,-0.000205,-0.018953,-0.000487,-0.005845,0.013825,0.031653,-0.005836,-0.016441,-0.014603,0.00114,0.007039,0.001376,-0.010731,-0.005935,0.011339,-0.001566,0.006347
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian7,0.125205,0.11577,0.07731,0.055556,0.035083,0.014781,0.00094,0.003461,-0.020861,-0.026606,0.000325,-0.007943,0.015907,0.031653,-0.009229,-0.014187,-0.010561,-0.002787,-0.006034,0.000125,0.004367,-0.010263,0.010353,-0.001205,0.003233
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian8,0.133173,0.119832,0.06939,0.052003,0.035391,0.020638,0.013161,0.013615,-0.001841,-0.024602,-0.004547,-0.004946,0.020515,0.024497,-0.002443,0.003713,0.009779,0.000127,0.005154,0.000125,-0.00574,0.005317,0.007641,-0.013375,0.005748
    Ukrainian:Ukrainian9,0.136588,0.127957,0.065996,0.066861,0.039392,0.018407,0.005405,0.014538,-0.000409,-0.025331,0.000487,-0.005995,0.019921,0.031791,-0.014386,-0.011005,-0.008475,-0.005448,0.002765,-0.004502,0,-0.004946,0.010723,-0.006025,0.003113
    U
    Last edited by Lucas; 08-25-2020 at 07:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    I would be curious to know if the paleo-balkanic admix in southern ukrainians came from the slavicized dacians of the northern carpathians; or it’s a medieval Vlach admixture.
    Southern Ukraine isn't homogenous, south-west differs from the south and the south is very diverse in itself. But there was both Vlach migration, native paleo-Balkanic, and Scythian (which was somewhat a mixture of paleo-Balkanic, Caucaus, North-Eastern, and East Eurasian genetic contribution).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ion Basescul View Post
    Southern Ukrainians? Southern Ukrainians are the most Northern-shifted Ukrainians, along with those in the East.
    No, they're not. Southern Ukraine is extremely diverse, but many of the southern areas were also founded by Cossacks or were already Cossacks who became state peasants. After the destruction of the Zaporizhian Sich many Cossacks eventually founded cities in the south. These people had a large southern genetic input, and also Turkic + Caucasus. Other regions were founded by migrants from Northern/Central Ukraine and Russia, not just ethnic Russians but people like Mordovins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jana View Post
    That' because southern Ukraine (black sea steppe) was repopulated after Turkic tribes were booted out by people from many places including central Russia. Same applies to south Russia. Slavic population in pontic caspian steppe isn't native there by more than few centuries.
    Again many southern regions were repopulated by Zaporizhian Cossacks who became Danuban Cossacks. The Zaporizhian Cossacks occupied the Steppes already and had a Turkic element in them. They were very diverse themselves. This is a myth repeated, mostly by Russians, and parroted by others on here. So yes many are native there because they originated as Steppe people (Iranic, Turkic etc.) who absorbed Ruthenian peasants..


    Quote Originally Posted by Ion Basescul View Post
    I know, I've traveled a lot in Ukraine. Those in the South speak primarily Russian, compared to Ukrainian in the West. And yes, the region was repopulated with people further North and East after the Crimean Khanate was disestablished.
    Speaking a language has nothing to do with ethnicity, many areas of the south with +90% ethnic Ukrainians still often speak Russian. But Russian migration did northenize the population in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jana View Post
    I don't have Ukrainian regional averages but on G25 southern Russians (who should be identical to east Ukrainians) have 20-30% Baltic admixture which sugests their origins are from further north.
    Again, none of these people would be identical to anyone. Because both the East of Ukraine and Southern Russia have mixed origins. From Cossacks, from non-Cossack Ukrainian and Russian migrants and so on. Even phenotypically all you have to do is look at say Kuban Cossacks and compare them to southern Russians with Central Russian origin and see that they are two completely different groups of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by opticalillusion View Post
    Dont know about West Ukraine but I know in Southern Ukraine Romanians and some Orthodox Albanians who fought in the wars against Turks were permitted to settle in order to colonize it.
    They had very little influence on the population, the south's southern influence is from Scythian/Iranic and some Balkan input via Cossacks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aspirin View Post
    Villages from 14-16 centuries founded under Vlach law, mostly from Lviv area.
    The only areas of Lviv that had Vlach settlement were around the Boyko homeland, so that isn't correct. Most of the Vlach settlement was further south/east than that in Galicia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    Southern Russians must be a mix of Central Russians (Ryazan, Moscow, Kaluga- that kind of places) and settlers from today's Ukraine (mainly along the Dnieper). Krasnodar, Rostov, Stavropol used to be heavily Cossack.
    Pretty much.

    Quote Originally Posted by vbnetkhio View Post
    maybe some of it is misinterpreted Scytho-Sarmatian? they have high i2a so i would guess the ressetlers were mostly from the wider Polesye region
    Ukrainian settlers to southern Russia came from southern/eastern Ukraine, Zaporizhian Sich but also waves of migrants from Northern Ukraine latter on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    Also Bulgarians. And what is interesting before 1941 many German colonies were there too. There was even one Swedish village https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammalsvenskby
    Germans had no influence on us, they were mostly in their segregated villages or landowners using Ukrainian peasant labour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    Are these samples publicly available? It seems they over-sampled South-West parts of Ukraine (including Zakarpattia) once again.

    How about making Ukrainian national average? In my opinion, for example in Global25 Western Ukrainians are over-represented:

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post6862270

    Currently existing GEDmatch averages for Ukraine, also skew in favour of Western Ukrainians.

    From Kiev average I removed 2 mixed with Tatars/Kavkaz and 3 too western/southern shifted compared to the rest.
    I agree the results are often skewed and completely neglect the south and east. But also, how do you know those people you removed were not entirely ethnic Ukrainian? Both Turkic and Caucasus admixture is present in Ukrainians, this is the issue with Ukrainians because of their position in the steppes and population migration from the steppes to the right bank and back, and also various resettlements and history of foreign settlers, Ukrainian genome is extremely diverse and people from the same region can vary quite different, even in admixture.

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