Was Venice a Balkanized civilization?

[Faklon]

And still is.

Venetian influence is the European influence in Spain, otherwise :

If we consider dalmatia as a part of Balkans then Its more possibly the exactly other way around, Its a part of Balkans which was "italized", as Venetians took a slavic speaking area from the Ottomans, turning it to a western society and culture. The parts of yugoslavia around nis, fyrom and kosovo which left the Ottoman empire later than anyone else, have always had the biggest illiteracy and poverty rate in Yugoslavia, followed by central Serbia. On the contrary, only Austrian ruled north Serbia and Croatia had an equal or higher culture than Dalmatia

In Greece* things were a little better, as the areas that got liberated after the revolution do not have a lower education or gdp than Ionian islands, Crete or Cyclades (parts with longer Venetian domination). But sadly in parts which were occupied by ottomans prior to 1400 and got liberated after 1850 (basically anything north of Lamia), illiteracy and poverty is higher, meawhnile these parts have little to show in terms of architecture, literature etc, meanwhile the only parts with interesting culture and architecture are again those with long venetian dominion, like Preveza and parga. Exception might be Macedonia, which in spite of longer Ottoman dominion it is more developed than a couple of regions south of it

*if we consider Greece as part of Balkans, as most of sources today see it as either non-balkan as a whole, or as balkan only in particular portions (thessaly, epirus or further north, like Britannica)

Ionian islanders are mostly uninspiring fishermen without hero statues. The only way they have slightly higher GDP than Thessaly is because they are owned by 2 bar owners whereas mainland Greece is owned by 1000000 shepherds.



The point of the thread is not to degrade Venice but how medieval Venice is considered by self-hating Balkan larpers as something distinctly Western (the right term imo is Romanesque). What is understood nowadays as Venice evolved with the Renaissance and the industrialization of Northern Italy, the places in the Balkans/Eastern Mediterranean which Venice ruled in the medieval lack these influences.

[Tauromachos]

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[brennus dux gallorum]

Venetian influence is the European influence in Spain, otherwise :







Ionian islanders are mostly uninspiring fishermen without hero statues. The only way they have slightly higher GDP than Thessaly is because they are owned by 2 bar owners whereas mainland Greece is owned by 1000000 shepherds.



The point of the thread is not to degrade Venice but how medieval Venice is considered by self-hating Balkan larpers as something distinctly Western (the right term imo is Romanesque). What is understood nowadays as Venice evolved with the Renaissance and the industrialization of Northern Italy, the places in the Balkans/Eastern Mediterranean which Venice ruled in the medieval lack these influences.

Well, if that makes you feel better, yes Ionian islanders are uninspiring fishermen

But i think there are some things you have confused: the middle ages end in 14th century. Venice rules ionian islands until 18th century, and along with the rest of venetian colonies (Crete, cyclades and many cities of the peloponese, for some period in 1688 all of peloponnese) it becomes the first place in Greece to get affected by rennaisance and later the first which was affected by the enlightenment.

For that reason as we know since primary school the vast majotity of artists, scientists and aithors and all of architectural activity prior to 1800 come from the ionian islands, meanwhile the center shifts in southern mainland after the revolution, but regions which got liberated after 1850 and had been previously ruled by ottomans since 1400 have little or nothing to present in terms of culture, literature and architecture. By this logic ionian islands (and later southern mainland) was a distinct west in the Balkans 2 centuries ago. We all know el greco or dionisios solomos. Who knows an average karagiannis or gikas from ropoto trikalon?

Now if by the places in Balkans ruled by Venetians during the middle ages you mean north Albania, then you would be right, as only Albania was ruled by venetians only during the middle ages

Its not mainland Greece as a whole which is ruled by 100000 sepherds, its specific regions, the part that connects epirus with thessaly (not even thessaly as a whole). Shepherds exist in all Greek regions (ionian islands included), but shepherds as local lords dominate only west thessaly and eastern epirus:



If thessalians were not so illiterate and non-enlightened they would also be as clever as ionian islanders to open a couple of bars and increase their gdp.

[Faklon]

snip

The only usefulness of Ionian islands was to serve an outpost for different empires, the notable people (Solomos, Giovanni Antonio Capodistria...) weren't native Ionian islanders who were mostly uneducated fishermen.

Meanwhile, the monasteries of Meteora and Mount Athos would save ancient manuscripts and paint icons of ancient Greek and Roman philosophers.

Ancient Greek philosophers in an Orthodox monastery

Byzantine frescoes of ancient philosophers

Where true Romanesque culture survived was the merchantile cities of the East (Constantinople, Smyrna...), altered by newcoming Ottoman (Turkiranoarabic) elements.



Ionian islanders will struggle to please their Skanderbeg overlords.

Crete as a more influential area was better in standing their ground and producing themselves Venetian lords like Kallergi (descendant of Phokas).

[brennus dux gallorum]

The only usefulness of Ionian islands was to serve an outpost for different empires, the notable people (Solomos, Giovanni Antonio Capodistria...) weren't native Ionian islanders who were mostly uneducated fishermen.

Meanwhile, the monasteries of Meteora and Mouth Athos would save ancient manuscripts and paint icons of ancient Greek and Roman philosophers.

Ancient Greek philosophers in an Orthodox monastery

Byzantine frescoes of ancient philosophers

Where true Romanesque culture survived was the merchantile cities of the East (Constantinople, Smyrna...), altered by newcoming Ottoman (Turkiranoarabic) elements.



Ionian islanders will struggle to please their Skanderbeg overlords.

Crete as a more influential area was better in standing their ground and producing themselves Venetian lords like Kallergi (descendant of Phokas).

By your logic there are no native ionian islanders at all, as all of us had ancestors from other parts of Greece (or italy in many cases). This doesnt change the fact that these people, when they had to live in Greece, the only part they could live and create was the ionian islands, as it was the one of the few parts which back then was not dominated by ottomans. or the fact that they are our ancestors, and we are their descendants, regardless from if they came from "somewhere else"

Monasteries in meteora did not offer any important scientist or scholar, nor there is anything special about their architecture. They could depict voyager 2 as well, that wouldnt make them comparable to nasa.

Indeed Crete was more fluent than Ionian islands before 17th century, and that has to do with the emphasis that venetians put on Crete back then. After Crete (sadly) fell to the ottomans many cretan nobles emigrated in the ionian islands, making up a good percentage of our ancestors, just like a good portion of surnames in achaea, coastal aetolia and messinia is from the ionian islands today

[brennus dux gallorum]

But since as i can see the issue makes you angry, i can do you the favor to not irritate you anymore and say "yes to all" if you want

[Varda]

My two ancestors served in Venetian army. One died in 1693 in the battle against Ottomans, and his son died in 1770 by natural death. Second one who died in 1770 had a rank of lieutenant (il tenente in Italian).

[Faklon]

By your logic there are no native ionian islanders at all, as all of us had ancestors from other parts of Greece (or italy in many cases). This doesnt change the fact that these people, when they had to live in Greece, the only part they could live and create was the ionian islands, as it was the one of the few parts which back then was not dominated by ottomans. or the fact that they are our ancestors, and we are their descendants, regardless from if they came from "somewhere else"

Monasteries in meteora did not offer any important scientist or scholar, nor there is anything special about their architecture. They could depict voyager 2 as well, that wouldnt make them comparable to nasa.

Indeed Crete was more fluent than Ionian islands before 17th century, and that has to do with the emphasis that venetians put on Crete back then. After Crete (sadly) fell to the ottomans many cretan nobles emigrated in the ionian islands, making up a good percentage of our ancestors, just like a good portion of surnames in achaea, coastal aetolia and messinia is from the ionian islands today

Monks from Meteora, Agrafa, Athos would educated the people and prepare the ground for the revolution.

Crete wasn't influential because of Venetians but because it has always been an influential mercantile and alpha place that managed to make it into Venetian nobility.

Ionian islander larpers are also portayed in modern Greek folklore with Sior Dionisis



A guy trying too hard to speak with an Italian accent and showcase his civilization but he is nevertheless a weak hypocrite.

On the other hand you have Barba-Giorgos,



A honest shepherd from mainland Greece who always saves other characters from the Turks.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Monks from Meteora, Agrafa, Athos would educated the people and prepare the ground for the revolution.

Crete wasn't influential because of Venetians but because it has always been an influential mercantile and alpha place that managed to make it into Venetian nobility.

Ionian islander larpers are also portayed in modern Greek folklore with Sior Dionisis



A guy trying too hard to speak with an Italian accent and showcase his civilization but he is nevertheless a weak hypocrite.

On the other hand you have Barba-Giorgos,



A honest shepherd from mainland Greece who always saves other characters from the Turks.

Not sure whats funny: karagiozis or the level of your arguments

[Varda]

My two ancestors served in Venetian army. One died in 1693 in the battle against Ottomans, and his son died in 1770 by natural death. Second one who died in 1770 had a rank of lieutenant (il tenente in Italian).

In the time of Venetian rule on Dalmatia Catholic church was very agressive towards the Orthodoxes.

Here is what Venetians did to Serbian Orthodox priest Petar Jagodić Kuridža https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Kuri...%27s_Rebellion