A proposal for a truely federal United Kingdom

[Albion]

• That all the current territory of England would remain as England, even if in as good as name only (that is the situation we are in now anyway).
• That all the English regions shall be just that, still regions of England even if England as a whole lacked one voice
• The flag and symbols would have to be agreed on, the current ones will probably be used
• What happens if the UK were to break up - the capital of England, the Parliament, etc
• Representation - English national sports teams and organisations preserved in most cases
• Rules regarding co-operation between the regions.

[Occident]

Yes, I'd be happy with that.


Yes it would, this is my main concern. England could be divided into regions, but it still needs to officially on paper as a entity and nation of the UK, even if there were to be no government for the whole nation.

It is about preserving England. Whilst I'am all for regional government I'am also for the preservation of England.

Well I'm glad we're finding some common ground. Really I should have thought about it before. The end of Yugoslavia was so bloody precisely because the Serbs were divided up in a deliberate and intentional manner by Croation communists so as to ruin them as a nation, and were forbidden any gurentee to their integrity. Obviously I'm not looking to undermine England in any manner what so ever. I am motivated by a desire to save my country from over-bearing central government that is forcing multiculturalism and moral decay down our throats, as well as a general affection for the regional varieties of Englishness. Thus it is obvious we need gurentees for the integrity and nationhood of England.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well yes I am indeed British, but your right Scotland is not geographically all that much smaller than England, I meant demographically and I should have been clear about that.

Now as for your proposal, its not an altogether terrible approach at all, a sort of British Confederation rather than the British Federation I propose above. Though its not dramatically different to my suggestion, as I also envisage that Westminster would be reduced largely to foreign affairs and defence. The main point of difference again is what to do with England. The issue under the Confederal approach (if you dont mind me using my own term for your idea) is that England would likely have more governing bodies than it needs. Between regional assemblies and a central authority at westminster, who really needs an English parliament? That is why I instead suggest a Council of England under the my Federal appraoch as I discuss above in a post to Albion. This would serve the purpose of giving England a collective voice, while avoiding the mania of over-government.

Your "federalism" would only mean the death of England (that's why you probably came up with it in the first place). My "confederalism" only brings Home Rule to all regions and leaves them in their historical context rather then in made-up regions without any historical raison d'etre (as would happen if your proposal would come into effect).

It basically works the same way as what the GDR did when they destroyed the Länder and replacing them with the Bezirke or what the French Republic did when they destroyed the provinces - replacing them with départements or what the Danes did when they destroyed the amter etc etc. - wiping out any traces of regional identity and thus national identity. Making it easy to manage for a government at the expense of the population.

[Albion]

Well yes I am indeed British,

Which? English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Channel Islander, mixture of these or an immigrant?

Sorry, but 'British' can mean anything these days since it's a nationality as well as a ethnicity for some people.

Are you a British Nationalist? Are you for the preservation of the Union?

but your right Scotland is not geographically all that much smaller than England, I meant demographically and I should have been clear about that.

Yeah, too bad most of the land is only good for sheep and midges.

The main point of difference again is what to do with England. The issue under the Confederal approach (if you dont mind me using my own term for your idea) is that England would likely have more governing bodies than it needs. Between regional assemblies and a central authority at westminster, who really needs an English parliament?

Yes, I thought of that too. England would also still hold all the power if it had one representative government.

That is why I instead suggest a Council of England under the my Federal appraoch as I discuss above in a post to Albion. This would serve the purpose of giving England a collective voice, while avoiding the mania of over-government.

The end of Yugoslavia was so bloody precisely because the Serbs were divided up in a deliberate and intentional manner by Croation communists so as to ruin them as a nation, and were forbidden any gurentee to their integrity.

Indeed, that was my concern.

Obviously I'm not looking to undermine England in any manner what so ever. I am motivated by a desire to save my country from over-bearing central government that is forcing multiculturalism and moral decay down our throats, as well as a general affection for the regional varieties of Englishness. Thus it is obvious we need gurentees for the integrity and nationhood of England.

Agreed.

I'd actually very much welcome a government for the North and one for the Midlands if it didn't mean compromising on England's integrity.

The South East has 36 Million People which gives it a massive and excessive control over British and English affairs.

The Midlands (16 million) and North (14 million) get sidelined and treated as some sort of problem by Westminister.
We see laws passed which may be good for the SE but haven't been thought out as to how good they'd be for the rest of the country.

Regional government would bring with it a few jobs, and the regions could attract investment and have control over some parts of the economy such as taxes, housing and health.

[Occident]

Which? English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Channel Islander, mixture of these or an immigrant?

Sorry, but 'British' can mean anything these days since it's a nationality as well as a ethnicity for some people.

Are you a British Nationalist? Are you for the preservation of the Union?

I am an Englishman. My father is Welsh, but the product of a near even blend of German, Irish, Welsh and Scottish. My mother is English from Yorkshire with some Anglo-Scottish border ancestry.

I personally prefer the term British patriot to nationalist, as I understand nationalism to imply that the nation is the sole reasonable basis for the organisation of the state. I believe multinational states can be beneficial, the United Kingdom and Canada are both examples of this, so I am not a nationalist. I am full and through a union man, however if the union were to disintegrate I would happily continue to advocate for my political beliefs of liberty and patriotism in the conext of an English national state.

Ultimately I am a Westerner and an Anglophone and I care deeply about the general success of our civilisation and the values of liberty and individualism that has made it strong, while at the same time I am tied by patriotism to my geographic community; England, Great Britain.

I'd actually very much welcome a government for the North and one for the Midlands if it didn't mean compromising on England's integrity.

The South East has 36 Million People which gives it a massive and excessive control over British and English affairs.

The Midlands (16 million) and North (14 million) get sidelined and treated as some sort of problem by Westminister.
We see laws passed which may be good for the SE but haven't been thought out as to how good they'd be for the rest of the country.

Indeed, the North of England desperately needs a way to deal with its own unique situation. It is much neglected region. I always thought it particularly funny to hear Scots complain of England, when in England the North complains of the South, when in the South the West of England complains of the East. Ultimately it all leads to westminster. I've been able to see from growing up in the west country and then moving to Yorkshire in my teens.

[Logan]

I am an Englishman. My father is Welsh, but the product of a near even blend of German, Irish, Welsh and Scottish. My mother is English from Yorkshire with some Anglo-Scottish border ancestry.

I personally prefer the term British patriot to nationalist, as I understand nationalism to imply that the nation is the sole reasonable basis for the organisation of the state. I believe multinational states can be beneficial, the United Kingdom and Canada are both examples of this, so I am not a nationalist. I am full and through a union man, however if the union were to disintegrate I would happily continue to advocate for my political beliefs of liberty and patriotism in the conext of an English national state.

Ultimately I am a Westerner and an Anglophone and I care deeply about the general success of our civilisation and the values of liberty and individualism that has made it strong, while at the same time I am tied by patriotism to my geographic community; England, Great Britain.

And, I have little doubt, an European Union advocate as well. The current situation in Greece might illustrate the fallacy of the idea.

I suppose you want this next.

[Occident]

It basically works the same way as what the GDR did when they destroyed the Länder and replacing them with the Bezirke or what the French Republic did when they destroyed the provinces - replacing them with départements or what the Danes did when they destroyed the amter etc etc. - wiping out any traces of regional identity and thus national identity. Making it easy to manage for a government at the expense of the population.
[/FONT]

Ironically I was motivated precisely by the concerns you express. All over Europe traditional regional boundaries have been destroyed and local culture deliberately undermined. This happened in Britain as well when we got rid of the traditional county boundaries in favour of made up counties that change every 10 years on the whim of Westminster bureaucrats. I am attempting to rectify this by bringing government to the regions.

And these regions are not made up. I have lived in three of them, Wessex, Yorkshire, and Northumbria, and all three exist to varying extents in the popular imagination, they all have widely recognised flags, historicaly understood names, and in the case of Wessex an already existing regionalist movement (albeit hardly large). Certainly some have a stronger foundation than others; Wessex, Yorkshire, Midlands, Cornwall, East Anglia, and Northumbria are all well understood regions of England. That leaves the Home Counties and Lancashire-Cumbria as slightly less than ideal. But this compares with the previous labour party proposals for English devolution which really were fantasy regions devised by politicians distinctly lacking either in imagination or any real affection for regional culture. They invented a whole array of "Englands"; "South-West England, North-West England, East England etc etc" and expected people to adopt these as part of their identity. Conversely I have taken considerable pains to make my proposed borders as culturally realistic as possible.

Incidently I also support a return to historic counties as part of this move to regionalisation, as depicted in the map in my initial post.

[Occident]

And, I have little doubt, an European Union advocate as well. The current situation in Greece might illustrate the fallacy of the idea.

I am completely and utterly opposed to the tyrannical abomination that is the European Union.

[Logan]

Doomsday Book - 1086 - English Counties



'Royal Mail plan to delete counties from addresses faces a stamp of disapproval. County names could disappear from postal addresses by 2016 after Royal Mail unveiled plans to delete them from its database. But sentimental attachments may be harder to erase.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/au...addresses-plan



http://www.abcounties.co.uk/

[Albion]

I believe multinational states can be beneficial, the United Kingdom and Canada are both examples of this, so I am not a nationalist.

Lol, both of them are examples of multinational states that don't work and are threatened by break up.

In Canada the Anglo-Canadians like the English in the UK are pissed off with Quebec getting preferential treatment.
The Quebecois feel that Canada is dominated by the Anglo-Canadians and so seek autonomy (~ Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish).
So you can see, multinational states often just lead to conflict if it is unequal.

I would happily continue to advocate for my political beliefs of liberty and patriotism in the conext of an English national state.

Good.

Doomsday Book - 1086 - English Counties

Whoa there! That does go back some time, I don't think you'll find a great deal of support for Wales and the Marches in those areas of England, let alone Wales.
When Shrewsbury was in charge, well maybe some support in England, but Cardiff? I can't see people in Chester and Salop especially liking that.

I'd also like to see the far North on the map too, I know it wasn't under effective Norman control at this time, hence another reason why we can't base the English regions on this map.

Its quite ironic, but the English tend to get more nationalistic / patriotic the closer you get to the border with Wales. I suppose the frontier mentality lives on.