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Thread: Where did Jesus say, "I am God, worship me"?

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    Puto el que lee Jacques de Imbelloni's Avatar
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    John 10:30

    I and the Father are one.

    Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims

    22Then came the Festival of Dedication b at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all c ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, becauseyou, a mere man, claim to be God.34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’ d ? 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.40Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed, 41and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.” 42And in that place many believed in Jesus.

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    Puto el que lee Jacques de Imbelloni's Avatar
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    John 14:8

    8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?…


    In My Father’s House Are Many Rooms1“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. 2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.The Way, the Truth, and the Life5“Lord, said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.9 Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me— or at least believe on account of the works themselves.12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you ask Me for anything in My name, I will do it.

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    Puto el que lee Jacques de Imbelloni's Avatar
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    John 8:48-59

    48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?”49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me.50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge.51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?”54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’[a]55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[b]58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The concept of the triune nature of God did not start with St Augustine. It is evident throughout the New Testament revelation of Jesus Christ, and the early Christians saw Jesus as God, understood his message and worshipped him. They also understood that the Holy Spirit was God, God's manifestation in the world after Jesus went to his Father.
    Indeed, that's why I wrote "it's in accordance with the Biblical text". And it was, as you say, understood by people before Augustine, as shown by important founding councils:

    - In 325, the First Council of Nicea establishes the identity of substance between the Father and the Son.

    - In 381, the First Council of Constantinople confirms the divinity of the Christ, affirms the one of the Holy Spirit and the symbol of Nicea-Constantinople is established: the Son has the same nature as the Father, the son became flesh and man. Being God, Jesus Christ is also real man.

    But Augustine wrote a whole treaty on the Trinity (he began working on it around 400) and I think he went further than ever before regarding its conceptualisation and its philosophical implications. Thanks to his speculative masterpiece, I think the Trinity becomes even more evident. Because still, it's a complex concept and this complexity makes Christianity even more beautiful.

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    Novichok
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    Yes, you are right about this. God used men like Augustine to conceptualise some of the mysteries of heaven. In our small human minds it's impossible to fully understand the nature of God, and therefore there are wonderful mysteries of God that we can come to grasp, with the help of the Holy Spirit and of course all the while in line with scripture. The Biblical text is also absolutely amazing, unlike any other books on earth, full of the depths and mysteries of God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Annihilus View Post
    Jesus is his own father or you have multiple gods, which is it?
    Christians shouldn't break heads about it. It is not of importance for Christians to try to solve that puzzle, nor is it for Christians to solve it. I couldn't care less is Trinity actually trinity or is Trinity triune but actually one.

    Let me give you an analogy why is that. Like most analogies it is not perfect, but you'll get the point.

    Quantum physicists or field theorists need to take many concepts, some of which are counterintuitive for granted in order to do physics. The deeper they go more abstract it becomes, started with classical notions, developed into field theory etc. They have to take them as truth because theory and equations (lets call it the scripture) tell them so.

    Likewise, Christians don't believe in Trinity or hypostatic union because it is implied in the NT and we just happen to be Christians, but because of goodness and wisdom delivered by Christ based on the scripture. Plus that combined with historical events. Christ stood behind his every word and 'the one who has an ear' will realize that what Jesus preached and stood by is exactly what someone might expect from a man claiming to be a God or God claiming to be a man. That someone can't simply place all of that under the carpet just like that. Pisslam for example may in essence be a simpler religion thanks to which it mostly strives, but for most of us it has failed to deliver man's expectations of divine.
    Last edited by Insuperable; 09-27-2020 at 02:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laly View Post
    Indeed, that's why I wrote "it's in accordance with the Biblical text". And it was, as you say, understood by people before Augustine, as shown by important founding councils:

    - In 325, the First Council of Nicea establishes the identity of substance between the Father and the Son.

    - In 381, the First Council of Constantinople confirms the divinity of the Christ, affirms the one of the Holy Spirit and the symbol of Nicea-Constantinople is established: the Son has the same nature as the Father, the son became flesh and man. Being God, Jesus Christ is also real man.

    But Augustine wrote a whole treaty on the Trinity (he began working on it around 400) and I think he went further than ever before regarding its conceptualisation and its philosophical implications. Thanks to his speculative masterpiece, I think the Trinity becomes even more evident. Because still, it's a complex concept and this complexity makes Christianity even more beautiful.
    It was first introduced and developed by Tertullian who was also north african

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    Humanity has a flesh body, spirit and a mind.

    God has Flesh, Mind, Spirit.

    Man was Created in His Image. That’s part of it. The Word (Christ) has always Been, as it is written, but also had to be born in the Temporal which was Fulfilling what He Foretold. God is Inside and Outside of Time.
    "3:16 For YHWH so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.."

    #GodWins

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    One can also see it like this: Take a look at your left hand. That is you, for sure. Now look at your right hand. That is also you! But it's two different hands, yet the same human being. In the same way, Jesus is God and so is the Father. (and the Spirit). Different functions but the same Godhead.
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    It is important for one's salvation to believe that Jesus is God. Because our creator is the only one who can save us, there is no other Redeemer.
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