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Thread: "The genetic origin of the Azerbaijani Turks"

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    Default "The genetic origin of the Azerbaijani Turks"

    Great summary on the topic, had to post it here.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/azerbaijan/...m_source=share

    Conclusion: Azerbaijani Turks are situated in a historically rich and ethnically diverse region. Their genetic history reflects that. They primarily descend from Iranic people followed by strong/significant secondary Anatolian and Medieval Turkic descent, and some notable Caucasian related ancestry as well. The ethnogenesis of Azerbaijani Turks began with the settlement of Seljuk era Oghuz Turks in Azerbaijan and their intermarriage with the mainly Iranic locals, followed by centuries of back migrations into Azerbaijan from Anatolian Turkic tribes/groups (notably the Qizilbash during the Safavid Empire) further intermarrying with the population. To say Azerbaijani's are a Turkified Iranic group that just adopted a Turkic language is demonstrably incorrect and completely disingenuous towards the complex ethnic and historical dynamics that have taken place in Azerbaijan during the past 1000 years.
    On the difference between North & South Azerbaijanis:
    When discussing the ancestry from pre-Turkic Azerbaijani's, Caucasian Albanians and Iranics (more specifically Medes) are commonly brought up. Before getting in-depth into genetics, I personally used to think there would be a noticeable difference between northern and southern Azerbaijani's due to Caucasian Albanians in the north and Medes in the south. There are samples from both Azeris in G25 and when I separated them, there was practically no difference; both had a distance of ~0.010 (compared to the other distances in the list above). So whatever ancestry Azerbaijani's have, based on current samples it seems to be mostly uniform across the region (on average) with a few exceptions like Azerbaijani_Dagestan.
    Last edited by Kyp; 09-28-2020 at 08:02 PM.

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    Bender1999
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    Good explanation for people who don’t know about Azerbaijani genetics. Similar case with Anatolian Turks, just replace some words with Anatolian. Btw he named sth which is very important but unfortunately no one understands: you must distinguish between beeing mixed and beeing assimilated.

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    Nice thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bender1999 View Post
    you must distinguish between beeing mixed and beeing assimilated.
    Tell us more about it..

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    Either all West Asian and Balkan Oghuzes should be considered one ethnicity or Anatolian/Balkan/Cypriot/Ahiska/Iraqi Turks, North Azerbaijanis, and South Azerbaijanis should be considered three (or more) separate ethnic groups.

    It doesn't make any sense to say the the Azerbaijanis of Iran are the same as the Azerbaijanis of Shirvan, but a different people to those in Turkey/Cyprus/Iraq/etc. The only thing separating them is religion, but it's not like one ethnicity has to exclusively adhere to one religion/sect. There are Shia and Sunni Kurds for example.

    The only reason that Azeris on both sides of the Aras River as considered one ethnicity while the Turks from Anatolia/Balkans/etc. are considered a separate ethnicity is because Azeris north of the Aras have their own country and they developed a separate distinctive identity around the time Russia annexed their land. This gives them a national identity and religion helps them emphasize themselves as a separate ethnicity from Turkey Turks. Due to sharing a name with Azeris south of the Aras River (which they hijacked for imperialistic purposes one century ago), they also got swallowed into the same ethnic group and became considered a separate ethnicity from Turkey Turks. But it's really just politics separating them. I don't see how a Turk from eastern Turkey and Thrace are one people while those from neighboring Azerbaijan are a separate people. At the end of the day, the main difference is just that one is Shia and the other is Sunni. And many of them, especially in the Republic of Azerbaijan, are irreligious.

    The Azeris north of the Aras River were also historically called just generic Turks (or Tatars) like those from Turkey are today, with "Shirvani" being their regional identity. The Russians even labeled as "Mountain Tatars" ("Tatar" meaning "Turk" here), not "Azeri" when referring to their ethnicity. Same applies to the Azeris south of the Aras River where they were just generic Turks and "Azerbaijani" being their regional identity.

    So all West Asian and Balkan Oghuzes (including Azeris on both sides of the river) should be considered one ethnic group using the logic that Republic Azeris and Iranian Azeris are one group. Otherwise, there's no consistency to the ethnic division between Azeris and the other Oghuzes of West Asia (plus the Balkans).

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    When discussing the ancestry from pre-Turkic Azerbaijani's, Caucasian Albanians and Iranics (more specifically Medes) are commonly brought up. Before getting in-depth into genetics, I personally used to think there would be a noticeable difference between northern and southern Azerbaijani's due to Caucasian Albanians in the north and Medes in the south. There are samples from both Azeris in G25 and when I separated them, there was practically no difference; both had a distance of ~0.010 (compared to the other distances in the list above). So whatever ancestry Azerbaijani's have, based on current samples it seems to be mostly uniform across the region (on average) with a few exceptions like Azerbaijani_Dagestan.
    They're part of a genetic continuum with Turkey Turks. There isn't some magic genetic forcefield between the borders of Turkey and the two Azerbaijans.

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    Isnt there a thread like this one already?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babak View Post
    Isnt there a thread like this one already?
    Just wanted to share this reddit post and the underlying data to it. Hence the "".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyp View Post
    Just wanted to share this reddit post and the underlying data to it. Hence the "".
    Aah okey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    Either all West Asian and Balkan Oghuzes should be considered one ethnicity or Anatolian/Balkan/Cypriot/Ahiska/Iraqi Turks, North Azerbaijanis, and South Azerbaijanis should be considered three (or more) separate ethnic groups.

    It doesn't make any sense to say the the Azerbaijanis of Iran are the same as the Azerbaijanis of Shirvan, but a different people to those in Turkey/Cyprus/Iraq/etc. The only thing separating them is religion, but it's not like one ethnicity has to exclusively adhere to one religion/sect. There are Shia and Sunni Kurds for example.

    The only reason that Azeris on both sides of the Aras River as considered one ethnicity while the Turks from Anatolia/Balkans/etc. are considered a separate ethnicity is because Azeris north of the Aras have their own country and they developed a separate distinctive identity around the time Russia annexed their land. This gives them a national identity and religion helps them emphasize themselves as a separate ethnicity from Turkey Turks. Due to sharing a name with Azeris south of the Aras River (which they hijacked for imperialistic purposes one century ago), they also got swallowed into the same ethnic group and became considered a separate ethnicity from Turkey Turks. But it's really just politics separating them. I don't see how a Turk from eastern Turkey and Thrace are one people while those from neighboring Azerbaijan are a separate people. At the end of the day, the main difference is just that one is Shia and the other is Sunni. And many of them, especially in the Republic of Azerbaijan, are irreligious.

    The Azeris north of the Aras River were also historically called just generic Turks (or Tatars) like those from Turkey are today, with "Shirvani" being their regional identity. The Russians even labeled as "Mountain Tatars" ("Tatar" meaning "Turk" here), not "Azeri" when referring to their ethnicity. Same applies to the Azeris south of the Aras River where they were just generic Turks and "Azerbaijani" being their regional identity.

    So all West Asian and Balkan Oghuzes (including Azeris on both sides of the river) should be considered one ethnic group using the logic that Republic Azeris and Iranian Azeris are one group. Otherwise, there's no consistency to the ethnic division between Azeris and the other Oghuzes of West Asia (plus the Balkans).
    Well I dont disagree, But there is a lot of politics involved now in how you call these people. Usually the Ottoman-Safavid dualism was used as a breaking point between Anatolian/Balkan Turks and Iranian-Turks which later got called Azerbaijani Turks.

    Recent history obviously has furthered the differences between the groups.

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