Natives are genetically much more divergent from Asiatics than even Indians are to Europeans?

[Maguzanci]

None of them have been isolated for nearly as much time as Amerindians.


Native Americans are pretty much Siberians in terms of deep ancestry, the drift caused by endogamy mess up the dimensions of the PCA.

Ok that make sense. Is the drift also the reason why they plot further East than where they should be located on PCA? I noticed that in many PCAs including in this G25 one, Natives are located only slightly western of Mongolians who are approx. 20-21% West Eurasian, on a East-West Eurasia-Africa Global PCA. If there is no drift, would Amerindians, being approx. 23-30% West Eurasian from their ANE, plot closer to the Altaian, Kyrgyz, Khakass who also have similar amounts of Western ancestry?

Like in this PCA based on the ANE K6 calculator?: (its not created by me, I got it from somewhere else, originally its from the user Petalpusher if I remembered). As you can see in this PCA, the Pima is plot slightly east of the Altaian while Clovis-Anzick plot slightly east of the Kyrgyz?

[Chris596]

What's the highest amount of Mongoloid ancestry you have seen for a Hungarian? Are Szekelys more East Asian-shifted than most Hungarians?

Yep, Natives seem to be more distant genetically from you and your dad than East Asians. I think your East Eurasian admix might be distinct than the ones ancestral to Amerindians, that could also be why they are genetically distant from you. Although, Ket, Selkup, Chukchi, Koryak are one of the closest groups to Native Americans genetically. Can you try to run them along with other Siberians like Yakut, Oroqen or include them along with the general East Asian groups in you and your dad distance runs?

Actually Inuits/Eskimos are even more similar to East Asians than Northern Natives are. But they are not considered American Indians because they are pretty recent migrants from Siberians compared to Natives. So yes, Northern Amerindians are the most East Asian-shifted/similar to East Asians among Native Americans.

You seem to be around 2% Mongoloid while your dad seems approx 4% East Asian? Are you and your dad more East Eurasian-shifted than most Hungarians?

Also it's interesting that the East Asian ancestry of you and your dad is Southern Chinese/SE Asian-related rather than Tungusic/Mongolic/Turkic which would be the Mongoloid ancestors of the Huns.

Yes I think I'm around 2% and my father is around 4% East Asian. It happens that I get Chinese or other South Chinese groups in many calculators (like Dai, Naxi, etc.). Even FTDNA said that I'm around 1% Southeast Asian, but that has disappeared after the newest update. Many full Szekelys get 2-3% Chinese/Japanese/Korean on Myheritage and what's really weird that I got nothing, but I'm waiting for the new update, maybe it will be fixed for me too.

So I consider myself average, or maybe a bit over the whole Hungarian average thanks to my half Szekely ancestry.

Based on what I've seen so far (here on the forum, Reddit, YouTube, DNA test results, etc.) the Hungarian average in Hungary is around 1% or lower. Szekely Hungarians are usually around 3-4-5% East Asian + Siberian (Mongoloid), so my dad is average I think. There are also other groups of Hungarians (Csango or Csangos) and they can be 6-7% Mongoloid, I believe Ion Basescul can help you more because he has Csango results.

Also, many people have more Siberian than actual East Asian ancestry, but it's the opposite in my case for some reason.

Here are the Siberian groups that you mentioned plus general East Asian nations, compared to me and my father:

Distance to:	Chris_scaled
0.36126184	Ket
0.40070146	Mala
0.42774208	Malayan
0.43512974	Selkup
0.47284299	Mongolian
0.52977829	Thai
0.54754375	Yakut
0.55120406	Malay
0.56441033	Chukchi
0.56542795	Mongola
0.56566487	Koryak
0.56835789	Indonesian_Bali
0.57841607	Indonesian_Java
0.58335360	Oroqen
0.58504113	Han_Shanxi
0.58626161	Lahu
0.58906149	Kinh_Vietnam
0.59053283	Han_Henan
0.59316369	Japanese
0.59478467	Han_Shandong
0.59538412	Han_Shanghai
0.59616686	Han_Sichuan
0.60037977	Korean
0.60125132	Han_Chongqing
0.60197788	Han_Hubei
0.60217430	Han_Fujian
0.60236773	Han_Jiangsu
0.60286939	Han_Zhejiang
0.60396400	Han_Guangdong
0.61783827	Igorot

Distance to:	ChrisFather
0.36261866	Ket
0.39853140	Mala
0.42476063	Malayan
0.43521014	Selkup
0.46798013	Mongolian
0.52270082	Thai
0.54310382	Yakut
0.54416243	Malay
0.55901619	Mongola
0.56120522	Indonesian_Bali
0.56404870	Chukchi
0.56439116	Koryak
0.57116465	Indonesian_Java
0.57791766	Oroqen
0.57824888	Han_Shanxi
0.57888691	Lahu
0.58159669	Kinh_Vietnam
0.58348780	Han_Henan
0.58639879	Japanese
0.58791988	Han_Shandong
0.58817916	Han_Shanghai
0.58887024	Han_Sichuan
0.59353716	Korean
0.59397536	Han_Chongqing
0.59470994	Han_Hubei
0.59485999	Han_Fujian
0.59503054	Han_Jiangsu
0.59577210	Han_Zhejiang
0.59647230	Han_Guangdong
0.61000701	Igorot

[Zoro]

This is insane...I didn't expect 20,000-30,000 years of separation of Natives from Asiatics can cause much genetic divergence... (PYF_150 and Botocudo are Polynesians btw). Also Botai is an ancient group called Western Siberian Hunter Gatherers from Kazakhstan.

Distance to: Surui

Spoiler!

0.45144807 Chukchi
0.50381745 Koryak
0.53161020 KAZ_Botai
0.55156500 Altaian
0.55528829 Yukagir_Tundra
0.55907543 Selkup
0.55926897 Kazakh
0.56170177 Ket
0.57265833 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
0.57328313 Hazara
0.58726398 Sherpa
0.58932856 JPN_Jomon
0.59467301 Japanese
0.60032053 Aeta
0.60447868 Onge
0.61563785 Malay
0.61677137 BRA_Botocudo
0.61727473 Udmurt
0.61745215 Saami
0.62104489 Bonda
0.62442478 Dai
0.62713080 PYF_150BP
0.62957509 Bengali_Bangladesh
0.63061934 Luzon
0.64498427 Paniya

Distance to: Bengali_Bangladesh
0.28279072 Udmurt
0.30187513 Mari
0.30933370 Saami
0.33035752 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.35516587 Hungarian
0.35922458 Italian_Tuscany
0.36287571 Irish
0.36360128 Swedish
0.37292777 RUS_Samara_HG
0.40636844 Sardinian
0.52731704 WHG

First you have to realize that the population history of Siberia is very complicated and there has been several population replacements there since the 1st humans appeared in NE Siberia around 45,000 years ago during the time of large mammals such as mammoths. Those 1st Siberians who are known as Ancient Northern Siberians (ANS, 2 genomes from Yana) predated ANE and there is no living person anywhere with significant ancestry from them. Neither do any of the ancients of Siberia show much ancestry from them except for the Paleo-Siberians who carried around 15% ancestry related to ANS. Their Y-DNA was P which is ancestral to Q, M, R, N and their MtDNA is basal U.

What I believe happened is that the Last Glacial Maximum around 20kya dessimated them and the few surviving ones made it south were absorbed by the Paleo Siberians.

ANS had ancestry from both Ancient West Eurasians such as Sungir and the like and Ancient E Eurasian such as Tianyuan although they had more ancestry from AWE. Similar to Malta Boy except more AEE shifted.

The fact that Paleo Siberians form about 75% of ancestry of Native Americans (the rest being ANE related) and harbor ANS and the 3rd generation Siberians of today don't carry this PS ancestry will cause them to be genetically very differentiated from modern E Asians. The only E Asians and Siberians that I know of that carry this PS ancestry are Koryaks (about 30%), Even, and Ket (but Ket also has some Afanasievo related also which would push them further away). That's why you see Koryaks closer to Native Americans. The other reason Koryaks are closer is because they have a little Clovis Native American from the back to Siberia migration. However Koryaks carry more E Asian than Native Americans.

I'll continue this later if i have time.

[samario]

No need to insult.

Of couse i know that. But Indians are not considered as West Eurasian group. They are only 45-55% West Eurasian on average similar to Horn Africans like Ethiopians, Somalians. The remaining of their genes is AASI (and somtimes East Asian admix in the cases of Bengalis and some groups that live close to SE Asia or Himalayas like Nepalis) which i thought would make them very distant and diverged from West Eurasians.

If you think Indians are West Eurasian pop, then you must see Horn Africans as West Eurasian group and not a mixed intermediate population.

I would imagine there's not a single pattern regarding West Eurasian ancestry in India. Maybe those from the north are more West Eurasian on average.

There was any sort of ancient migration from the Indian subcontinent into Europe or West Asia? I get some minimal South Asian when I run my kit on GEDmatch (usually a tad below 1%). Odd.

It's really cool that Native Americans descend from Siberians.

[Maguzanci]

First you have to realize that the population history of Siberia is very complicated and there has been several population replacements there since the 1st humans appeared in NE Siberia around 45,000 years ago during the time of large mammals such as mammoths. Those 1st Siberians who are known as Ancient Northern Siberians (ANS, 2 genomes from Yana) predated ANE and there is no living person anywhere with significant ancestry from them. Neither do any of the ancients of Siberia show much ancestry from them except for the Paleo-Siberians who carried around 15% ancestry related to ANS. Their Y-DNA was P which is ancestral to Q, M, R, N and their MtDNA is basal U.

What I believe happened is that the Last Glacial Maximum around 20kya dessimated them and the few surviving ones made it south were absorbed by the Paleo Siberians.

ANS had ancestry from both Ancient West Eurasians such as Sungir and the like and Ancient E Eurasian such as Tianyuan although they had more ancestry from AWE. Similar to Malta Boy except more AEE shifted.

The fact that Paleo Siberians form about 75% of ancestry of Native Americans (the rest being ANE related) and harbor ANS and the 3rd generation Siberians of today don't carry this PS ancestry will cause them to be genetically very differentiated from modern E Asians. The only E Asians and Siberians that I know of that carry this PS ancestry are Koryaks (about 30%), Even, and Ket (but Ket also has some Afanasievo related also which would push them further away). That's why you see Koryaks closer to Native Americans. The other reason Koryaks are closer is because they have a little Clovis Native American from the back to Siberia migration. However Koryaks carry more E Asian than Native Americans.

I'll continue this later if i have time.

Thank you for educating me about this. So Yana is the ancestor of ANE? Who are the Paleo-Siberians: are they a mix of East and West Eurasians?

I see. ANS was mostly ancient West Eurasian? I heard another user here also told me their West Eurasian is mostly related to Gravettians/Paleo Europeans. How did they get to Siberia from Europe in the first place? So Native Americans are around 75% Paleo-Siberian and 25% ANE?

I have learned that Native Americans are around 60-70% East Eurasian and 30-40% ANE. This is true right? And that means they are around 23-30% West Eurasian since ANE is 3/4 ancient West Eurasian-related (Sunghir, Gravettian/PaleoEuropean) and 1/4 basal East Eurasian?

Also should Natives actually plot with Turkic Siberians/Central Asians like Altaian, Khakass, Kyrgyz on a 3-axis, East Eurasia-West Eurasia-Africa PCA plot due to having similar amounts of East and West ancestries like the aforementioned groups? I noticed that in many PCAs, Natives are often plot a lot more further East, only slightly western of where Mongolians plot. Does the reason they plot further East in PCAs has to do with extreme genetic drift?

Like in this PCA based on ANE K6 calculator, the Native Americans (Clovis and Pima) seem to be plot where they should be: close to Altaian and Kyrgyz:


Please continue when you have time..I really appreciated you teaching me about this.

[Maguzanci]

I would imagine there's not a single pattern regarding West Eurasian ancestry in India. Maybe those from the north are more West Eurasian on average.

There was any sort of ancient migration from the Indian subcontinent into Europe or West Asia? I get some minimal South Asian when I run my kit on GEDmatch (usually a tad below 1%). Odd.

It's really cool that Native Americans descend from Siberians.

There are indeed several waves of migrations that brings West Eurasian ancestry to the Indian subcontinent. Its mostly those from the Northwest/Northern part of India/Pakistan such as Kashmiris, Sindhis, Jatts, Khatris, Rors or from upper castes such as Kshatriyas, Brahmins (the upper castes live all over the country, not only the Northwest) who are more West Eurasian on average. Most Indians including those from the North are still rather in the 45-55% range of Western ancestry.

There are even Indians who barely have any West Eurasian like the Austroasiatic tribes of East India (they are mainly an Australoid+Mongoloid mix plus some minor Caucasoid), or those who are literally zero like the Mongoloids of the Northeast and Himalayan regions and the Andamanese tribes. Although these groups are a very tiny minority of India's population.

Yup, its even more interesting that they are a literally an ancient "mixed race" group being a mix of ancient East Eurasians and Ancient North Eurasian (much more related to West Eurasians than to East Eurasians).

[Zoro]

Thank you for educating me about this. So Yana is the ancestor of ANE? Who are the Paleo-Siberians: are they a mix of East and West Eurasians?

I see. ANS was mostly ancient West Eurasian? I heard another user here also told me their West Eurasian is mostly related to Gravettians/Paleo Europeans. How did they get to Siberia from Europe in the first place? So Native Americans are around 75% Paleo-Siberian and 25% ANE?

I'll give you a summary of the chain of events:

1- Ancestors of W and E Eurasians split around 45kya thus forming a Basal W Eurasian and Basal E Eurasian

2- Ancient N Siberians (ANS) (Yana) split from Early W Eurasians (EWS) (Kostenki-UP, Sunghir-UP, Vestonice-UP, El Miron-UP) around 38kya

3- ANS gets a pulse(s) of around 30% Basal E Eurasian admixture (related to Tianyuan-UP) around 35-38kya. That's why ANE is E Eurasian shifted compared to Ancient West Eurasians

4- ANE descends from ANS

5- Ancient Paleo-Siberians (AP) and [ ancestors of NeoSiberians (Even) and E Asians (Han) ] who are all on the E Eurasian branch split from each other around 27kya. That's why the E Eurasian in Native Americans is old and not Han like.

6- AP splits from Ancient Beringians (AB) around 23kya. AFTER this split both AP and AB get a pulse of about 17% ghost ANS


7- NeoSiberians (Even) split from E Asians (Han) around 20kya. Siberian in E Europeans is NeoSiberian related and not PaleoSiberian.

8- NS get a pulse of about 4% PS


Here are some proportions of PS, NS, and E Asian

[IMG][/IMG]

[Zoro]

20-25% W Eurasian related would be a fair estimate for Pre-Colonial Native Americans. Presently W Eurasian in many Native Americans would be higher due to recent admixture with Europeans

[Maguzanci]

20-25% W Eurasian related would be a fair estimate for Pre-Colonial Native Americans. Presently W Eurasian in many Native Americans would be higher due to recent admixture with Europeans

Interesting. So isn't somewhere from 23-30% West Eurasian for Natives due to their 30-40% ANE? Or the ANE estimates for them are not accurate?

In an East to West Eurasia to Africa PCA,, would they plot somewhere between Altaians and Kyrgyz due to similar amounts of West Eurasian ancestry?

Are these PCAs accurate where they should plot?

For example, does this PCA based on the Gedrosia ANE K6 exhibits well where Native Americans are located genetically (Credits to the user Petalpusher from TA for creating the PCA)?




And also this PCA: Totonacs are an Amerindian ethnic group from Southern Mexico. The PCA comes from this DNA study. The Bolivians according to this paper has some European admixture while the Totonacs are 100%/close to 100% Amerindian. CHB/JPT are Han Chinese from Beijing, Japanese from Tokyo while CEU are Americans of European descent from Utah and YRI aer Yorubas fo West Africa. https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._the_New_World




Also one more: This PCA from the Malaspinas DNA paper on Botocudo genomes: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60982214012743

[Maguzanci]

I'll give you a summary of the chain of events:

1- Ancestors of W and E Eurasians split around 45kya thus forming a Basal W Eurasian and Basal E Eurasian

2- Ancient N Siberians (ANS) (Yana) split from Early W Eurasians (EWS) (Kostenki-UP, Sunghir-UP, Vestonice-UP, El Miron-UP) around 38kya

3- ANS gets a pulse(s) of around 30% Basal E Eurasian admixture (related to Tianyuan-UP) around 35-38kya. That's why ANE is E Eurasian shifted compared to Ancient West Eurasians

4- ANE descends from ANS

5- Ancient Paleo-Siberians (AP) and [ ancestors of NeoSiberians (Even) and E Asians (Han) ] who are all on the E Eurasian branch split from each other around 27kya. That's why the E Eurasian in Native Americans is old and not Han like.

6- AP splits from Ancient Beringians (AB) around 23kya. AFTER this split both AP and AB get a pulse of about 17% ghost ANS


7- NeoSiberians (Even) split from E Asians (Han) around 20kya. Siberian in E Europeans is NeoSiberian related and not PaleoSiberian.

8- NS get a pulse of about 4% PS


Here are some proportions of PS, NS, and E Asian

[IMG][/IMG]

Thanks for explaining the summary of the events.

So how much total ANE do Native Americans actually have? What's the closest modern population to the E Eurasian ancestors of Natives? Do Amazonians have highest ANE/West Eurasian despite looking phenotypically much more Asiatic than North American, Mexican, Central American and Andean, Southern Cone tribes?