Slavs among Vikings

**Peterski** · 10-17-2020, 10:03 AM

Their K13 results (versions "a" are from Vadim Verenich's raw data files):

Code:

VK474a_Gotland,32.95,44.29,9.48,3.42,5.59,0.28,0.18,0,0.59,0.81,1.65,0,0.76
VK474b_Gotland,32.28,44.68,9.18,3.35,4.51,1.29,0.69,0,0.09,1.28,1.64,0.09,0.92
VK139a_Funen,26.17,50.28,9.09,1.44,7.49,0.38,0.21,0,0,2.11,0.94,0.55,1.33
VK139b_Funen,25.63,50.09,9.35,2.17,6.5,0.68,0.72,0,0,1.96,0.79,0.78,1.32
VK340a_Jutland,28.6,43.79,11.33,4.03,6.3,0.12,3.6,0,0.42,0.15,0,1.25,0.41
VK340b_Jutland,29.18,44.17,9.8,5.06,6.3,0,3.49,0,0.44,0.16,0,1.41,0
VK53a_Gotland,31.28,40.33,13.71,3.74,5.76,0.03,0,1.13,0.18,0.55,0.95,0.87,1.47
VK53b_Gotland,30.83,40.93,14.13,3.56,5.24,0.14,0,1.23,0.74,0.14,0.85,0.41,1.79
VK157a_Bodzia,37.32,44.98,8.77,0,1.21,4.22,0.7,0,0,0.78,0.85,0.6,0.57
VK157b_Bodzia,35.83,43.49,9.43,1.67,1.64,3.4,0.81,0,0.16,1.16,0.98,0.18,1.25
VK212a_Cedynia,29.2,49.4,8.82,5,2.13,0.2,1.77,0,1.04,0,0.24,1.79,0.42
VK212b_Cedynia,29.02,49.77,9.02,4.57,2.56,0.12,1.19,0,1.16,0,0.25,1.76,0.58
VK453a_Gotland,32.49,42.85,8.85,3.26,3.51,2.68,0,0,1.02,0,1.61,3.73,0
VK453b_Gotland,30.73,45.34,8.5,3.69,2.57,2.78,0,0,1.13,0,1.59,3.68,0
VK287a_Langeland,28.05,43.88,8.79,7.09,8,0,1.56,0.44,1.3,0.39,0.27,0.23,0
VK287b_Langeland,27,44.27,9.39,7.46,7.63,0,1.66,0.21,1.37,0.47,0.49,0.06,0
VK309a_Skara,31.83,50.02,9.09,2.12,1.75,2.95,0,0.55,0,0,0.97,0,0.71
VK309b_Skara,32.09,49.05,9.46,2.78,1.47,2.71,0,0.41,0.1,0,1.19,0,0.72
VK156a_Bodzia,34.65,43.28,9.62,3.13,5.11,0,0,0,0.81,2.01,0.98,0,0.4
VK156b_Bodzia,35.34,42.47,8.82,3.62,5.03,0,0,0.31,1.36,1.9,0.91,0,0.23

And VK160:

Code:

VK160a,27.84,53.35,7.03,2.29,2.52,1.95,0.6,2.04,0.52,0.54,0,0.81,0.51

**vbnetkhio** · 10-17-2020, 10:07 AM

---

**Peterski** · 10-17-2020, 10:07 AM

Come on, how did you manage classify this guy as a Balt based on K13? This is what he scores in K13 Vahaduo:

Distance to: VK474a_Gotland
4.17789421 Sorb_Lusatia
4.39388211 Masurian
4.49357319 Polish
5.19992308 South_Polish
6.77958701 Ukrainian
6.93230842 Belorussian
7.36159629 Cossacks_Kuban
7.46121304 Russian_Smolensk
7.48264659 Estonian_Polish
7.89739831 Ukrainian_Lviv
8.50425188 Czech

**Leto** · 10-17-2020, 10:11 AM

Both Funen samples are extremely similar to my father's K13 (first three components - 50% Baltic, 26% North Atlantic, 9% West Med). Just saying.

**Peterski** · 10-17-2020, 10:17 AM

VK160 could be a Balt, but not the other two.

=====

These are Balts for example (just like those two with 30-40% "Finnish-like", although they could also be Livonians):

Distance to: VK434 Gotland_Frojel-01288
0.55059059 LV_Latvia-Karsava
0.61138449 LV_Latvia-Riga
0.72699587 LV_Latvia
0.82939315 LV_Latvia-Dobele
0.86993908 LT_Lithuania-Mazeikiai
0.91781806 LT_Lithuania-Panevezys
0.92560845 LT_Lithuania-Klaipeda
0.93100644 LT_Lithuania-Utena
(...)

Distance to: VK438 Gotland_Frojel-04498
0.81687453 LT_Lithuania-Siauliai
0.82045597 LT_Lithuania-Klaipeda
0.82650166 LT_Lithuania-Mazeikiai
0.87972041 LT_Lithuania-Utena
0.91868003 LT_Lithuania-Kaunas
(...)

These 4 are also Balts:

VK458 Gotland_Frojel-03299_3

VK459 Gotland_Frojel-02198

VK463 Gotland_Frojel-019A89

VK475 Gotland_Kopparsvik-187

**vbnetkhio** · 10-17-2020, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Peterski

Come on, how did you manage classify this guy as a Balt based on K13? This is what he scores in K13 Vahaduo:

Distance to: VK474a_Gotland
4.17789421 Sorb_Lusatia
4.39388211 Masurian
4.49357319 Polish
5.19992308 South_Polish
6.77958701 Ukrainian
6.93230842 Belorussian
7.36159629 Cossacks_Kuban
7.46121304 Russian_Smolensk
7.48264659 Estonian_Polish
7.89739831 Ukrainian_Lviv
8.50425188 Czech

i'm not sure if it was because of the Balticness. i placed all the Viking samples, and vahaduo k13 updated North/West Euro, Baltic/Finnic and West/East Slavic(+ 4 early Slavic samples) averages on a PCA, and deleted those who visually looked as too big outliers from the West/East/early Slavic cluster.

**Peterski** · 10-17-2020, 10:21 AM

These are Germanic (among others):

Funen:

VK316
VK295
VK279
VK446
VK280
VK141
VK312
VK370
VK371
VK372
VK313
VK134

Langeland:

VK367
VK320
VK291
VK275
VK285
VK288
VK364
VK366
VK282
VK289
VK338
VK290

Jutland:

VK582 - Alken Enge
VK300 - Hesselbjerg
VK325 - Ribe
VK323 - Ribe
VK384 - Hesselbjerg
VK324 - Ribe

Oland:

VK522
VK533
VK342
VK343
VK344
VK352
VK337
VK335
VK354
VK348
VK380

Gotland:

VK460
VK48
VK479
VK50

**Peterski** · 10-17-2020, 10:25 AM

VK139 looks like modern Russians:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
RUS_Oryol
0.7911182
RUS_Voronezh
0.8516930
RUS_Smolensk
0.8590757
BY_Brest-Region
0.8906834
(...)

**Peterski** · 10-17-2020, 10:28 AM

VK160 is borderline Slav/Balt, there are Poles with over 28% and even over 30% East_Central_Euro:

(I have a Polish sample native to Kłobuck in South-West Poland that scores 28% East_Central_Euro):

Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 1,11
Central African 0
Central Euro 9,4
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 2,44
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 27,41
East Med 0
Eastern Euro 25,22
Fennoscandian 14,11
French 5,09
Iberian 2,1
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 0,55
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 6,44
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 4,62
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 1,18
West African 0,33
West Caucasian 0
West Med 0

^^^
See, this one has both Lithuanians and Russians among top distances, so he was a Balto-Slavic mix:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
LT_Lithuania-Alytus
0.8159963
RUS_Moscow
0.8479080
RUS_Smolensk
0.8565547
RUS_Pskov
0.8902545
BY_Minsk
0.8962064
LT_Lithuania-Utena
0.9047088
EE_Estonian-Poles
0.9192682
LV_Latvia-Jelgava
0.9418652
RUS_Kursk
0.9564162
LT_Lithuania-Klaipeda
0.9590850
(...)

=====

To sum up, I think you should include VK474 and VK139, but do not include VK160 (clearly mixed with Balts).

**Peterski** · 10-17-2020, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by vbnetkhio

i'm not sure if it was because of the Balticness. i placed all the Viking samples, and vahaduo k13 updated North/West Euro, Baltic/Finnic and West/East Slavic(+ 4 early Slavic samples) averages on a PCA, and deleted those who visually looked as too big outliers from the West/East/early Slavic cluster.

Show me a Lithuanian that is closest to Sorb_Lusatia in K13, except for these which are Poles from Lithuania (or something like that):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...outh-Lithuania

BTW, my regional averages for Lithuania are based on academic samples but I removed these Slavic-shifted outliers. I have only pure Balts.

In Global25, Davidski added some of the Slavic-shifted "Lithuanians" and there are Polish users who are closest to these samples, see:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?s...&#entry1910654

^^^
Polish user Radek is closest to these samples in Global25:

Distance to: Radek_scaled
0.02539729 Lithuanian_PA:LTG-173
0.02556808 Lithuanian_PA:LTG-788
(...)
0.02825192 Lithuanian_PA:LTG-804
(...)
0.02994509 Lithuanian_PA:LTG-1352

^^^
But I uploaded them to GEDmatch and see what they score:

Lithuanian_PA:LTG-173 (South Aukštaitija) - kit UW7999068
Lithuanian_PA:LTG-788 (South Aukštaitija) - kit SU9121750
Lithuanian_PA:LTG-804 (South Aukštaitija) - kit WU8448499
Lithuanian_PA:LTG-1352 (South Aukštaitija) - kit HX2459622

LTG-173 in Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 48.53
2 North_Atlantic 30.02
3 West_Med 10.68
4 West_Asian 3.75
5 East_Med 3.68
6 Amerindian 0.97
7 Sub-Saharan 0.86
8 Oceanian 0.78
9 South_Asian 0.71

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Estonian_Polish 3.49
2 Polish 3.5
3 Russian_Smolensk 3.76
4 Belorussian 3.94
5 Ukrainian 6
6 Southwest_Russian 6.05
7 Lithuanian 6.29
(...)

LTG-788 in Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 51.65
2 North_Atlantic 26.96
3 West_Med 9.04
4 East_Med 5.55
5 West_Asian 3.58
6 South_Asian 1.15
7 Siberian 0.95
8 Red_Sea 0.86
9 Amerindian 0.15
10 Oceanian 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Estonian_Polish 2.82
2 Belorussian 3.32
3 Russian_Smolensk 3.98
4 Lithuanian 4.75
(...)

LTG-804 in Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 49.51
2 North_Atlantic 26.49
3 West_Med 9.73
4 West_Asian 5.95
5 East_Med 3.49
6 Siberian 2.03
7 South_Asian 0.96
8 Northeast_African 0.93
9 Amerindian 0.61
10 East_Asian 0.28
11 Sub-Saharan 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Estonian_Polish 2.95
2 Russian_Smolensk 3.02
3 Southwest_Russian 3.69
4 Belorussian 4.27
5 Ukrainian_Belgorod 4.32
6 Polish 5.48
7 Lithuanian 5.81
(...)

LTG-1352 in Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 49.56
2 North_Atlantic 32.97
3 West_Med 6.15
4 West_Asian 3.85
5 East_Med 3.5
6 South_Asian 1.53
7 Siberian 1.5
8 Oceanian 0.32
9 East_Asian 0.29
10 Amerindian 0.24
11 Sub-Saharan 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Estonian 3.9
2 Belorussian 3.91
3 Estonian_Polish 5.27
4 Russian_Smolensk 5.46
5 Lithuanian 5.73
6 Polish 6.21
(...)

^^^
Do you think these are pure Balts?