Balkan Turk GEDmatch Results, Dodecad K12b Averages

[Thracian]

the spreadsheet Without Turkish, crimean tatar, Gagauz, Azeri, and pomak samples to fully separate The Turkmen from the Bulgarian admixture.



well among the small fraction of the clannish circassians that have kept their culture to the modern day, yes they would be secluded and insular as a culture. they are a small portion of the hundreds of thousands who settled in Anatolia in the 1800s and assimilated into the Turkish populations. In a time when the Anatolian population was a dozen million, a migration of almost a million people would have a big impact genetically especially as it compounds generationally.



If integration didn't happen then what happened to the vast numbers of North Caucasians who settled in Anatolia of which only a small number still identify with the languages and culture.

Thanks. I asked because to see what I get with your model. Anyway, as far as I know, and many people also suggest, modeling with 0.25x is (No-recalculate) better.

[Kaspias]

If integration didn't happen then what happened to the vast numbers of North Caucasians who settled in Anatolia of which only a small number still identify with the languages and culture.

Not a million of them were settled into the Balkans, it's the total number of people who are expelled which includes the ones that remained outside of the Turkish borders. The population settled in the Balkans was around 250.000. More than half were directly headed to Anatolia and established their own villages without mixing with the local population. The rest were headed to the Southern part of the Balkans, like a quarter of them tried to turn back but then expelled to Central Asia. Some are melted into the Albanian population and created a distinct subgroup, some were migrated to the Europe and USA, some migrated to Turkey together with Balkan Turks. Total disappearance of the identity has never happened, even today if one has Circassian ancestry it should have been known in the family story which will direct us not to add him to the spreadsheet. Integration and assimilation are not necessarily must happen simultaneously.

So the Crimean Tatars actually do have significant Slavic admixture? Does it come from Russian slaves captured by Tatars?

I do not know honestly but it does seem to be a most reasonable explanation as Crimean Tatars do not rich in terms of Slavic Y-DNA. Crimean Khanate has no records as Ottomans have, therefore it is hard to trace all these, I'm making conclusions mostly based on genetic results.

• Based on historical records I would expect ancestors of Crimean Tatars to be Karakalpak-like, however, that's just an assumption without much validity.
• Rumeika is regarded as a Pontian dialect, therefore I would consider early Greeks of the region to be Pontian-like, while Azov Greeks might have other influencers through time, usage of Pontian would give a clearer result.
• I do not know how the Goth profile was but supplied many Germanic samples and the calculator picked German.

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Steppe
Distance: 1.0632% / 1.06321510
57.4 Karakalpak
18.7 Ukrainian
13.4 Greek_Pontus
10.5 German

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
Distance: 1.0664% / 1.06643568
39.5 Greek_Pontus
23.3 German
17.7 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
11.5 Karakalpak
8.0 Ukrainian

Target: Crimean_Tatar_Coast
Distance: 1.6923% / 1.69230471
35.4 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
33.0 Greek_Pontus
31.1 German
0.5 Ukrainian

That's correct. The ones I mentioned are from Thessaloniki. Never had met one from Bulgaria claim they have minor Caucasian ancestry. As you said, that would be limited with individual cases.

The same goes for Tatars, I noticed when I add Tatars from Crimea almost all Balkan Turks get them instead of Turkmens.

Yes. In many cases Tatar admixture is overrepresented in the runs, mainly due to their native part overlaps with the Balkan Turks. One should be cautious while making conclusions based on these, some other Gedmatch calculators should be checked if it is required.

[Thracian]

I was just thinking since they live in Turkey, speak only Turkish and are Sunni Muslims, there would simply be no reason for them to remain segregated. Even the phenotypical difference between Caucasians and Anatolian Turks is not that significant. Probably something like the Irish and Germans or Romanians and Italians.

Let alone Circassians, majority of Balkan Turks did not even mix with Anatolian Turks. It should be less than 25%. I will also do not this. Of course, now the things became different due to technological developments, migrations to big cities from villages/ rural areas. Now, people can meet people from different cities easily and can marry. The numbers will be changed dramatically.

We also shouldn't ignore tribalistic mind and cultural differences. Circassians are also known for how nationalists they are. They try to preserve their own culture but as you mentioned they do not speak their languages.

[Kaspias]

I was just thinking since they live in Turkey, speak only Turkish and are Sunni Muslims, there would simply be no reason for them to remain segregated. Even the phenotypical difference between Caucasians and Anatolian Turks is not that significant. Probably something like the Irish and Germans or Romanians and Italians.

Mixing happens but it is not like a mass transformation of an ethnicity. Circassians still live in Circassian villages and prefer to marry each other(the same for each subgroup lives in Turkey, not something special to Circassians) but it is also not something discrediting to marry someone who is alien to your ethnicity. Circassians speak and identify Turkish but they know that they are Circassians at the end, mostly bearing identities such as "Circassian Turkish" and people see them as a natural part of Turkishness, respecting their Circassian identities. They are pretty much integrated in this sense.

That's why averages of different groups from Turkey are still present, otherwise, it just would be a genetic soup and ethnic Turks would experience certain genetic replacements. As Thracian said even Balkan and Anatolian Turks who are core populations of the nation act pretty conservative when it comes to the mixing of both. However, you can imagine that such traditionalism reduces with the each new generation.

[Leto]

A Crimean Tatar who was brought to the U.S. as a baby shortly after the end of the Soviet Union.

As usual, the V5 raw data may be somewhat deficient.

R-Z93
H13a1a1a

K12b

Gedrosia 9.34 Pct
Siberian 3.43 Pct
Northwest_African 1.29 Pct
Southeast_Asian -    
Atlantic_Med 17.52 Pct
North_European 22.31 Pct
South_Asian 1.4 Pct
East_African -    
Southwest_Asian 7.97 Pct
East_Asian 5.4 Pct
Caucasus 31.33 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

Distance to: A.
4.16247523 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
6.58933229 Turk_Trakya
9.61433305 Turk_Deliorman
10.13421926 Turk_Makedonya
10.26437041 Turk_Northwest
11.24605709 Bulgarian_Thrace
11.27665731 Greek_Peloponnese
11.59005608 Greek_Lemnos
12.06310491 Greek_Central
12.07220361 Greek_Foca

Target: A.
Distance: 1.6191% / 1.61905827 | ADC: 0.25x RC
69.7 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
20.8 Pomak_Greece
3.2 Turk_Trakya
2.8 Japanese
2.7 Coptic
0.8 Yemenite_Mahra

Target: A.
Distance: 2.6756% / 2.67559165 | ADC: 0.5x RC
66.2 Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
29.4 Turk_Trakya
4.4 Crimean_Tatar_Steppe

K13

North_Atlantic 14.11 Pct
Baltic 15.24 Pct
West_Med 13.81 Pct
West_Asian 19.95 Pct
East_Med 21.02 Pct
Red_Sea 4.46 Pct
South_Asian 2.07 Pct
East_Asian 2.61 Pct
Siberian 5.92 Pct
Amerindian 0.23 Pct
Oceanian 0.23 Pct
Northeast_African -    
Sub-Saharan 0.35 Pct

Distance to: A.
5.12459755 Turk_Trakya
9.20673123 Turk_Deliorman
9.38908409 Turk_Crete
9.63776945 Greek_Macedonia_Thrace
9.68317097 Greek_Istanbul
10.74315596 Turk_North_West
10.81424061 Turk_Makedonya
13.00825892 Greek_Central
13.24954339 Greek_West_Macedonia
13.26871132 Greek_Northeast

Target: A.
Distance: 1.4057% / 1.40570698 | ADC: 0.25x RC
73.5 Turk_Trakya
15.2 Turk_Central_West
6.0 Nogay
2.7 Saudi
2.6 Tajik_Tajikistan

Target: A.
Distance: 2.1339% / 2.13392702 | ADC: 0.5x RC
69.3 Turk_Trakya
30.7 Turk_North_West

[Kaspias]

A Crimean Tatar who was brought to the U.S. as a baby shortly after the end of the Soviet Union.

As usual, the V5 raw data may be somewhat deficient.

Thanks for posting Leto. The result is very likely to belong to a Mountain Tatar. Mountain Tatars and Thracian Turks have got a very similar breakdown despite having no relativity in terms of IBD.

[Kaspias]

Razgrad, from the villages near the Loznitsa(Kubadın).

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	North_European	29.25
2	Caucasus	25.84
3	Atlantic_Med	17.55
4	Southwest_Asian	10.79
5	Siberian	6.4
6	Gedrosia	6.2
7	Northwest_African	1.88
8	South_Asian	1.36
9	Southeast_Asian	0.73

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Bulgarian (Dodecad)	11.97
2	Romanians (Behar)	12.78
3	Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)	13.23
4	Greek (Dodecad)	17.96
5	O_Italian (Dodecad)	18.26
6	Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)	21.46
7	C_Italian (Dodecad)	21.67
8	Ashkenazi (Dodecad)	21.8
9	S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)	22.99
10	Tuscan (HGDP)	23.12
11	Sicilian (Dodecad)	23.14
12	TSI30 (Metspalu)	23.31
13	Hungarians (Behar)	23.65
14	N_Italian (Dodecad)	24.35
15	Nogais (Yunusbayev)	24.81
16	Sephardic_Jews (Behar)	26.93
17	North_Italian (HGDP)	27.15
18	Turkish (Dodecad)	27.24
19	Morocco_Jews (Behar)	28.19
20	Turks (Behar)	28.45

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#	 	Primary Population (source)	Secondary Population (source)	Distance
1	 	55.2%	Sephardic_Jews (Behar)	+	44.8%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	4.73
2	 	60.5%	Ashkenazi (Dodecad)	+	39.5%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	4.88
3	 	61%	Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)	+	39%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	4.98
4	 	59.2%	S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)	+	40.8%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	5.05
5	 	58.7%	Sephardic_Jews (Behar)	+	41.3%	Russian (HGDP)	@	5.4
6	 	59.1%	Sicilian (Dodecad)	+	40.9%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	5.43
7	 	57.3%	Sephardic_Jews (Behar)	+	42.7%	Mordovians (Yunusbayev)	@	5.47
8	 	54.1%	Morocco_Jews (Behar)	+	45.9%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	6.18
9	 	56.2%	Morocco_Jews (Behar)	+	43.8%	Mordovians (Yunusbayev)	@	6.26
10	 	65.8%	Greek (Dodecad)	+	34.2%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	6.41
11	 	59.6%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	40.4%	FIN30 (1000Genomes)	@	6.53
12	 	57.6%	Morocco_Jews (Behar)	+	42.4%	Russian (HGDP)	@	6.65
13	 	64.1%	Sephardic_Jews (Behar)	+	35.9%	FIN30 (1000Genomes)	@	6.65
14	 	54%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	46%	Russian (HGDP)	@	6.78
15	 	65%	Sephardic_Jews (Behar)	+	35%	Finnish (Dodecad)	@	6.82
16	 	64.7%	Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)	+	35.3%	Russian (HGDP)	@	6.89
17	 	64.3%	Ashkenazi (Dodecad)	+	35.7%	Russian (HGDP)	@	7.09
18	 	60.4%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	39.6%	Finnish (Dodecad)	@	7.09
19	 	63.5%	Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)	+	36.5%	Mordovians (Yunusbayev)	@	7.1
20	 	50.5%	Cypriots (Behar)	+	49.5%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	7.1

Distance to:	X
7.34970067	Turk_Deliorman
7.70360954	Turk_Trakya
9.54116345	Pomak_Greece
9.71493181	Turk_Makedonya
10.49078643	Moldovan_Gagauz
10.49227811	Bulgarian_East
11.36320817	Bulgarian_Thrace
11.38953906	Pomak_Bulgaria
11.48736262	Bulgarian_Central
11.84634965	Moldovan_South
12.47825308	Bulgarian_West
12.81928235	Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
12.98546110	Romanian
13.09995802	Greek_Thessaloniki
13.19378263	Greek_Macedonia
13.33132026	Macedonian_South
13.36921464	Greek_Thessaly
13.47129170	Macedonian_Polog
13.56562568	Greek_Thrace
13.71221718	Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
13.77450181	Macedonian_Vardar
13.79477075	Macedonian_East
13.82383811	Greek_Peloponnese
14.33111301	Albanian_Kosovo
14.83554852	Montenegrin

Distance to:	X
3.05984207	55.80% Greek_Cypriot + 44.20% Veps
3.13889101	51.00% Greek_Cypriot + 49.00% Russian_Ural
3.16613376	55.00% Nusayri_Turkey + 45.00% Veps
3.19601690	60.00% Turk_Cyprus + 40.00% Veps
3.19742550	48.80% Lebanese_Christian + 51.20% Russian_Ural
3.26345863	48.40% Palestinian_Christian + 51.60% Russian_Ural
3.42809128	48.20% Jordanian_Christian + 51.80% Russian_Ural
3.45313478	52.00% Russian_Ural + 48.00% Syrian_SW_Christian
3.48407088	53.00% Nusayri_Turkey + 47.00% Russian_Northern_Dvina
3.55269404	44.60% Russian_Ural + 55.40% Turk_Cyprus
3.56444492	51.60% Lebanese_Christian + 48.40% Russian_Northern_Dvina
3.61495103	53.80% Greek_Cypriot + 46.20% Russian_Northern_Dvina
3.61980119	53.60% Lebanese_Christian + 46.40% Veps
3.62856715	50.40% Nusayri_Turkey + 49.60% Russian_Ural
3.68830907	37.60% Finnish_East + 62.40% Turk_Cyprus
3.70364415	42.00% Russian_Northern_Dvina + 58.00% Turk_Cyprus
3.75515829	47.00% North_Russian + 53.00% Nusayri_Turkey
3.76864958	44.40% Karelian + 55.60% Nusayri_Turkey
3.76961067	42.60% Finnish_East + 57.40% Nusayri_Turkey
3.77239395	41.80% Finnish_East + 58.20% Greek_Cypriot
3.77897516	51.60% Lebanese_Christian + 48.40% North_Russian
3.91869271	51.20% Nusayri_Turkey + 48.80% Russian_Kostroma
3.92605269	50.60% Greek_Cypriot + 49.40% Komi
3.92893018	49.60% Lebanese_Christian + 50.40% Russian_Kostroma
3.94682823	39.40% Karelian + 60.60% Turk_Cyprus

[Kaspias]

"Deliorman" he didn't state the specific town.

Admix Results (sorted):

#	Population	Percent
1	North_European	30.58
2	Caucasus	26.49
3	Atlantic_Med	20.04
4	Southwest_Asian	8.24
5	Gedrosia	7.15
6	Siberian	5.26
7	Southeast_Asian	2.23

Single Population Sharing:

#	Population (source)	Distance
1	Bulgarian (Dodecad)	9.31
2	Romanians (Behar)	10.05
3	Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)	10.58
4	O_Italian (Dodecad)	16.33
5	Greek (Dodecad)	16.99
6	C_Italian (Dodecad)	20.36
7	Tuscan (HGDP)	21.25
8	Hungarians (Behar)	21.31
9	TSI30 (Metspalu)	21.4
10	Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar)	21.95
11	N_Italian (Dodecad)	22.03
12	Ashkenazi (Dodecad)	22.37
13	S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)	22.81
14	Sicilian (Dodecad)	23.01
15	North_Italian (HGDP)	24.94
16	Nogais (Yunusbayev)	25.45
17	German (Dodecad)	26.49
18	Sephardic_Jews (Behar)	27.78
19	Turkish (Dodecad)	27.92
20	Kumyks (Yunusbayev)	29.23

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

#	 	Primary Population (source)	Secondary Population (source)	Distance
1	 	67%	Greek (Dodecad)	+	33%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	5.07
2	 	60.9%	S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)	+	39.1%	Mordovians (Yunusbayev)	@	5.32
3	 	55.9%	Sephardic_Jews (Behar)	+	44.1%	Mordovians (Yunusbayev)	@	5.34
4	 	59.7%	S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)	+	40.3%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	5.39
5	 	58.4%	Hungarians (Behar)	+	41.6%	Turks (Behar)	@	5.71
6	 	62.4%	S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad)	+	37.6%	Russian (HGDP)	@	5.74
7	 	57.4%	Sephardic_Jews (Behar)	+	42.6%	Russian (HGDP)	@	5.79
8	 	59.6%	Sicilian (Dodecad)	+	40.4%	Chuvashs (Behar)	@	5.85
9	 	90.9%	Bulgarian (Dodecad)	+	9.1%	Ket (Rasmussen)	@	5.87
10	 	57.1%	Hungarians (Behar)	+	42.9%	Turkish (Dodecad)	@	5.91
11	 	90.6%	Bulgarian (Dodecad)	+	9.4%	Selkup (Rasmussen)	@	5.94
12	 	92.6%	Bulgarian (Dodecad)	+	7.4%	Yakut (HGDP)	@	5.94
13	 	60.8%	Sicilian (Dodecad)	+	39.2%	Mordovians (Yunusbayev)	@	5.95
14	 	93.1%	Bulgarian (Dodecad)	+	6.9%	Evenk (Rasmussen)	@	5.98
15	 	79.5%	Romanians (Behar)	+	20.5%	Turkmens (Yunusbayev)	@	6
16	 	92.2%	Bulgarian (Dodecad)	+	7.8%	Dolgan (Rasmussen)	@	6.01
17	 	93.9%	Bulgarian (Dodecad)	+	6.1%	Nganassan (Rasmussen)	@	6.01
18	 	92.7%	Bulgarian (Dodecad)	+	7.3%	Yukagir (Rasmussen)	@	6.02
19	 	79.2%	Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)	+	20.8%	Tajiks (Yunusbayev)	@	6.05
20	 	66.5%	Hungarians (Behar)	+	33.5%	Iranian_Jews (Behar)	@	6.12

Distance to:	X
4.81474818	Turk_Deliorman
6.55460907	Pomak_Greece
6.72194168	Turk_Trakya
7.40559923	Moldovan_Gagauz
7.53620594	Bulgarian_East
7.61340922	Turk_Makedonya
8.27455739	Pomak_Bulgaria
8.32647585	Bulgarian_Central
8.72676916	Moldovan_South
9.26915854	Bulgarian_West
9.49079554	Bulgarian_Thrace
9.75947232	Romanian
9.81908855	Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
10.24463762	Greek_Macedonia
10.38342911	Macedonian_Polog
10.81737491	Macedonian_East
10.84160505	Macedonian_South
10.94002742	Macedonian_Vardar
11.45656144	Greek_Thessaloniki
11.60471456	Greek_Thessaly
11.69560601	Montenegrin
11.85355221	Greek_Thrace
11.86302238	Albanian_Kosovo
12.88497575	Greek_Peloponnese
13.56631859	Albanian

Distance to:	X
4.77722925	65.80% Italian_Apulia + 34.20% Komi
4.78305203	88.60% Bulgarian_East + 11.40% Tatar_Zabolotniye
4.95047712	66.00% Italian_Apulia + 34.00% Russian_Ural
5.13456492	87.00% Bulgarian_East + 13.00% Tatar_Siberia
5.16360607	89.60% Moldovan_Gagauz + 10.40% Tatar_Zabolotniye
5.16699453	13.80% Bashkir_South + 86.20% Bulgarian_East
5.17260158	58.80% Italian_Apulia + 41.20% Tatar_Mishar
5.20102222	28.00% Assyrian_South + 72.00% Moldovan_North
5.23769081	28.20% Assyrian_West + 71.80% Moldovan_North
5.24857615	78.20% Moldovan_South + 21.80% Nogai
5.25625634	28.00% Assyrian_North + 72.00% Moldovan_North
5.26432781	58.40% Italian_Calabria + 41.60% Russian_Ural
5.29477620	90.40% Bulgarian_East + 9.60% Shor
5.31408253	68.60% Italian_Apulia + 31.40% Russian_Northern_Dvina
5.32022509	94.00% Bulgarian_East + 6.00% Evenk
5.32437339	94.20% Bulgarian_East + 5.80% Yukagir
5.33673945	93.60% Bulgarian_East + 6.40% Sakha_Yakutia
5.34039011	27.60% Mandean + 72.40% Moldovan_North
5.34193104	9.80% Altaian_Chelkan + 90.20% Bulgarian_East
5.34714533	33.00% Azerbaijani_Turkey + 67.00% Moldovan_North
5.38583675	81.00% Moldovan_South + 19.00% Turkmen_Iran
5.41919108	15.80% Bashkir_Central + 84.20% Bulgarian_East
5.42827203	82.40% Bulgarian_Central + 17.60% Turkmen_Iran
5.43422439	83.00% Bulgarian_Central + 17.00% Turkmen_Uzbekistan
5.44187762	82.20% Moldovan_South + 17.80% Turkmen_TM

[Kaspias]

^

He turns out to be from Ruse.

[Hektor12]

^

He turns out to be from Ruse.

Why those 2 above lack any east_asian?