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Thank you. Not too different than hybrid one but I prefer hybrid one.Originally Posted by Kaspias
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Is there any way to tell If I have Balkan Turkish ancestry instead of Sephardic Jewish, i mean most likely i have both, considering my ancestor was from Silistra province, but what is more?
On Eurogenes K13 i can model my self as 87,5 East Europea 6,25 Bulgarian 6,25 Middle Eastern
or also in that way
Target: Abriekman
Distance: 4.4122% / 4.41220944
85.4 Polish
14.6 Turk_Drama
Target: Abriekman
Distance: 4.6782% / 4.67823487
89.6 Polish
5.6 Bulgaria_average
4.8 Turkmen
Maybe you can recommend good calculator for detecting it or rejecting it.
Genealogically I did not prove my Sephardic ancestry, I proved it only by matches, G25 and other tests, so I do not know exact percentage
Last edited by Abriekman; 10-22-2020 at 03:27 PM.
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I just saw you commented on here. I think already got the answer in the other thread?
qpAdm: Bulgarian_1.DG= 77 - Kimak.SG= 23, p= 0.36, se= 0.31.
Y: Q-L330 > Q-YP771 > Q-BZ180 > Q-F16045* (F15008*) --> Baikal N, Altai MLBA, Aldy-Bel, Pazyryk, Hun.
MT: K1a --> Iron Gates, Starcevo, Bulgaria N, Bulgaria CA, Bulgaria BA.
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Yes, thank you. You said I have Bulgarian matches from Tarnovo and Vratsa, if you can please sent me that kits in PM
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New sample:
He is from Sofia Province, one of the rarest samples I have.
1/2 Etropole, 1/2 Izladi.(Zlatitsa)
Updated oracle:Code:Admix Results (sorted): # Population Percent 1 Caucasus 28.67 2 North_European 27.34 3 Atlantic_Med 23.21 4 Gedrosia 8.87 5 Southwest_Asian 6.91 6 East_Asian 1.96 7 Northwest_African 1.83 8 Southeast_Asian 0.63 9 Siberian 0.58 Single Population Sharing: # Population (source) Distance 1 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 8.93 2 Romanians (Behar) 10.15 3 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 10.3 4 O_Italian (Dodecad) 11.47 5 Greek (Dodecad) 12.79 6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 15.39 7 Tuscan (HGDP) 16.51 8 TSI30 (Metspalu) 16.83 9 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 18.07 10 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 18.26 11 N_Italian (Dodecad) 18.3 12 Sicilian (Dodecad) 18.37 13 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 18.56 14 North_Italian (HGDP) 21.23 15 Hungarians (Behar) 23.38 16 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 23.77 17 Turkish (Dodecad) 25.27 18 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 25.35 19 Nogais (Yunusbayev) 26.12 20 Turks (Behar) 27.04 Mixed Mode Population Sharing: # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance 1 52.3% Turkish (Dodecad) + 47.7% German (Dodecad) @ 2.89 2 60.4% Turkish (Dodecad) + 39.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.69 3 50.5% Turks (Behar) + 49.5% German (Dodecad) @ 3.73 4 57% German (Dodecad) + 43% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 3.94 5 60.2% Turkish (Dodecad) + 39.8% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 3.98 6 86.6% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 13.4% Makrani (HGDP) @ 4.21 7 55.6% Turkish (Dodecad) + 44.4% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 4.28 8 57.3% German (Dodecad) + 42.7% Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) @ 4.31 9 57.6% German (Dodecad) + 42.4% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) @ 4.43 10 87.2% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 12.8% Balochi (HGDP) @ 4.46 11 51.2% Armenian (Dodecad) + 48.8% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 4.47 12 88.1% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 11.9% Brahui (HGDP) @ 4.51 13 56.9% German (Dodecad) + 43.1% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 4.51 14 79.3% Romanians (Behar) + 20.7% Iranians (Behar) @ 4.54 15 54.1% Turkish (Dodecad) + 45.9% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 4.56 16 57.6% German (Dodecad) + 42.4% Assyrian (Dodecad) @ 4.57 17 79.1% Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) + 20.9% Iranians (Behar) @ 4.58 18 52% Hungarians (Behar) + 48% Turkish (Dodecad) @ 4.59 19 78.8% Romanians (Behar) + 21.2% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 4.64 20 80% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 20% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 4.64
Code:[1,] "Turk_Makedonya" "3.373" [2,] "Turk_Deliorman" "4.3446" [3,] "Bulgarian_Thrace" "4.3479" [4,] "Turk_Trakya" "4.7645" [5,] "MD_Gagauz" "4.8019" [6,] "Bulgarian_East" "5.1693" [7,] "Greek_Macedonia" "5.4901" [8,] "Greek_Thessaly" "6.7535" [9,] "Greek_Thessaloniki" "6.7628" [10,] "Greek_Thrace" "6.9061" [11,] "Bulgarian_Central" "7.5283" [12,] "Albanian_Kosovo" "7.6917" [13,] "Greek_Peloponnese" "7.9348" [14,] "Albanian_North" "8.1858" [15,] "MD_South" "8.4434" [16,] "Bulgarian_West" "8.4987" [17,] "Pomak" "8.5456" [18,] "Greek_Central" "9.7527" [19,] "Romanian" "9.7676" [20,] "Macedonian" "9.7747"Code:[1,] "13.6% Azerbaijani + 86.4% MD_Gagauz" "1.7827" [2,] "13.3% Azerbaijani_Turkey + 86.7% MD_Gagauz" "1.7858" [3,] "12.8% Azerbaijani_Iran + 87.2% MD_Gagauz" "1.8175" [4,] "84% MD_Gagauz + 16% Turk_Anatolia" "1.84" [5,] "83.8% MD_Gagauz + 16.2% Turk_Central_West" "1.8462" [6,] "84.8% MD_Gagauz + 15.2% Turk_South" "1.8548" [7,] "85.3% MD_Gagauz + 14.7% Turk_Central_East" "1.8578" [8,] "86% MD_Gagauz + 14% Turk_Southeast" "1.8703" [9,] "85.4% MD_Gagauz + 14.6% Turk_Central_Black_Sea" "1.8733" [10,] "82.1% MD_Gagauz + 17.9% Turk_West_BlackSea" "1.8915" [11,] "82.7% MD_Gagauz + 17.3% Turk_Southwest" "1.9025" [12,] "84.4% MD_Gagauz + 15.6% Yoruk" "1.9407" [13,] "88.1% MD_Gagauz + 11.9% Turkmen_Iraq" "1.9679" [14,] "28.2% Crimean_Tatar_Mountain + 71.8% MD_Gagauz" "1.9733" [15,] "88.2% MD_Gagauz + 11.8% Zaza" "1.9836" [16,] "88.7% MD_Gagauz + 11.3% Talysh_Azerbaijan" "1.9948" [17,] "11.9% Kurd_Kurmanji + 88.1% MD_Gagauz" "2.0166" [18,] "10.7% Kurd_KAZ + 89.3% MD_Gagauz" "2.0191" [19,] "80.9% MD_Gagauz + 19.1% Turk_Northwest" "2.0196" [20,] "82.3% Greek_Macedonia + 17.7% Yoruk" "2.0317" [21,] "88.1% MD_Gagauz + 11.9% Udi_Azerbaijan" "2.0759" [22,] "87.7% MD_Gagauz + 12.3% Turk_East" "2.0803" [23,] "70.9% Macedonian + 29.1% Turk_Anatolia" "2.0817" [24,] "72.9% Macedonian + 27.1% Turk_Central_East" "2.0932" [25,] "31.5% Armenian_West + 68.5% HUN_Szekely" "2.0995" [26,] "10.4% Lur_Iran + 89.6% MD_Gagauz" "2.1045" [27,] "83.4% Bulgarian_East + 16.6% Yoruk" "2.1077" [28,] "70.5% Macedonian + 29.5% Turk_Central_West" "2.1145" [29,] "10.5% Iranian + 89.5% MD_Gagauz" "2.1194" [30,] "24.7% Azerbaijani_Turkey + 75.3% Macedonian" "2.12"
qpAdm: Bulgarian_1.DG= 77 - Kimak.SG= 23, p= 0.36, se= 0.31.
Y: Q-L330 > Q-YP771 > Q-BZ180 > Q-F16045* (F15008*) --> Baikal N, Altai MLBA, Aldy-Bel, Pazyryk, Hun.
MT: K1a --> Iron Gates, Starcevo, Bulgaria N, Bulgaria CA, Bulgaria BA.
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A new module applied in Vahaduo gave me chance to see the accuracy of my former "In search of ancestors" projects. The working process is exactly the same as what I did in the past.
B(Turk) - A(Native) = C
Dodecad K12b Modern
Spoiler!
Dodecad K12b Ancient
Spoiler!
Global25 Ancient
Spoiler!
Global25 Modern
Spoiler!
Anatolian Turks for comparison
Spoiler!
qpAdm: Bulgarian_1.DG= 77 - Kimak.SG= 23, p= 0.36, se= 0.31.
Y: Q-L330 > Q-YP771 > Q-BZ180 > Q-F16045* (F15008*) --> Baikal N, Altai MLBA, Aldy-Bel, Pazyryk, Hun.
MT: K1a --> Iron Gates, Starcevo, Bulgaria N, Bulgaria CA, Bulgaria BA.
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Conclusions regarding all the data we have now:
For an introduction to the context, you may visit: Turkic Migration to the Balkans
- Anatolian Turks show a continuum, again. There is an Iranian input among Turks which we are not sure about the source. Potentially either thanks to mixes that happened during the Seljuk Empire or the rearguard migrations that are happened during/after 15-16th centuries. From my perspective, the results, in any chance, suggest more than one migration wave to Asia Minor.
- MA2195 might not be an outlier. MA2196 might represent the theory of mixing during the Seljuk era. Therewithal DA222, DA230, and DA89 winking to Oghuz.
- Anatolia and Rumelia influenced equally by the migrations that came from the South of the Hazar.
- Oghuz population in Anatolia was a definitive dominant among all and absorbed any other Turkic population inside if there were. The other Turkic groups who settled in the Rumelia apparently were able to inherit their DNA today as we see the current drift. The region as a whole, although having various sources for Turkic input, they were not numerous as much as Turkic's who had lived in Anatolia.
- It is proved that Balkan Turks have no Anatolian influence on average, again. Actually, the results suggest the Turkic input given to Balkan Turks were more East Eurasian than the Anatolian Turks. At least this is what balanced final admixture shows.
There are some reasons why we see such a situation, and if so, how Balkan Turks have lower East Eurasian scores.
The actual reason is briefly Tatars. Balkan Turks are influenced by those mentioned migrations which happened later and their Turkic form shaped the same as Anatolian Turks as well. Ottoman/Seljuk admixture is definitely dominant here, and the difference I'm talking about is not more than 30%. Parallel to what I have stated, we see models such as x + Turkmen in the majority of Balkan Turks just like what we see in Anatolian Turks. On the other hand, there are also individuals who model with various Tatar populations, even Mongols. They drift the average Turkic DNA slightly.
Yet Ironically Balkan Turks have lower East Eurasian scores. This is a result of most of the Balkan regions, except for Trakya and Deliorman, are not supplied with fresh-comers after a few waves arrived. After all, we see 0% to 3% East Eurasian admixture in regions such as Kastoria, Drama... The regions that have richer Turkic scores usually either got the mentioned Iranian input or the recent Tatar migration took place. Concisely Balkan Turk population expanded through the native population while Turks in Anatolia were numerous against natives.
Role of Celali Rebellions is also a moot point. Balkan Turks usually connected with various regions from Anatolia with IBD. Yes, we don't see the Anatolian influence on averages, but individuals might have it in negligible amounts. Besides, it might be already absorbed in terms of the statistical amounts at all. Lastly, we don't know the DNA profile of Anatolian Turks in the 16-17th century. There is a good potential that they were MA2196-like, and having more East Eurasian than today. This would end up with being no changes in the Balkan Turk DNA profile as it was already Turkmen-like. The isolated Anatolian admixture could not survive more than two generations and would merge with the native Balkan admixture. The truth of the matter is even if they were just like today's Anatolian Turks, there is still an opportunity that Balkan absorbs Anatolian admixture and the Turkic admixture inherits as an isolated admixture and overlapping point.
To sum it up, the expansion of Balkan Turk took place from Turkic to Native. The early Oghuz who registered into Yoruk associations in the 15-16th century were either in pure Oghuz form or mixed in Iran one generation. My personal opinion here, both could be present, yet a great majority can be in Oghuz form still. At the same time with these early-Yoruks also a few Tatar associations were present and functioned the same as Yoruks. A note here that population breakdown according to mentioned associations in the early 1600s is 70% Oghuz - 30% Tatar. Simultaneously, there was probably migration of people who identify as Turkoman and probably were from Iran/Anatolia. These are not registered into Yoruk associations as they are already settled and sent Balkans in order to sustain agricultural production. In the following centuries, Celali Rebellions took place and irregular migrations from Anatolia to the Balkans happened. The process and the input they provided into the DNA pool were explained above. As a final point, Tatar migrations from the Crimean War to the Great War were seen. An era that shaped the genetic formation of Balkan Turks is closed.
For the pre-Ottoman period, there are other measurements that have to be done.
qpAdm: Bulgarian_1.DG= 77 - Kimak.SG= 23, p= 0.36, se= 0.31.
Y: Q-L330 > Q-YP771 > Q-BZ180 > Q-F16045* (F15008*) --> Baikal N, Altai MLBA, Aldy-Bel, Pazyryk, Hun.
MT: K1a --> Iron Gates, Starcevo, Bulgaria N, Bulgaria CA, Bulgaria BA.
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Although there are pre-Ottoman Turkic settlements all over the Eastern Balkans, we have the most decent data on the region Deliorman.
1- Tsardom of Vidin, House of Shisman.
2- Despotate of Dobruja, House of Balik.
The name Deliorman was mentioned by the 17th-century Byzantine historian Kedrenos as Teleorman. It is known that Deliorman spread to both sides of the Danube in the Middle Ages. The area between the Aluta and Vede rivers in Romania today is still called Teleorman. The name Deliorman is suspected to be related to the Pecheneg and Cuman Turks who settled on both sides of the Danube in the 11th and 12th centuries. This region had a Turkish majority since the early period of the conquest. Today, still Turks are 50% of the population despite all the migrations that happened.
I intended to run Bulgarian, Gagauz, and Turkish samples from the region.
Bulgarians from the Northeast differs from Western and Central Bulgarians only by carrying additional Levantine/Armenian-like admixture.
Code:Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓ A: Bulgarian_West B: Bulgarian_Northeast C: ↴ 3.39422491 Armenian_West 3.39084892 Assyrian_West 3.38765172 Assyrian_South 3.38705630 Assyrian_North 3.38471866 Azeri_Jew 3.36948760 Armenian_East 3.36245120 Kurdish_Jew 3.36045855 Turk_East 3.35760307 Iraqi_Jew 3.35546324 Iranian_JewOn the other hand, the Bulgarian population as a whole, differ from Serbs only with the mentioned Eastern shift:Code:Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓ A: Bulgarian_Central B: Bulgarian_Northeast C: ↴ 2.65418174 Nusayri_Turkey 2.65006877 Assyrian_West 2.64748738 Assyrian_South 2.64673345 Armenian_West 2.64368667 Assyrian_North 2.64110009 Azeri_Jew 2.63429661 Iraqi_Jew 2.63242283 Kurdish_Jew 2.63171321 Greek_Cappadocia 2.62862159 Turk_Cyprus
Code:Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓ A: Serb B: Bulgarian_Northeast C: ↴ 10.64143170 Greek_Cappadocia 10.58851155 Greek_Crete 10.57717363 Bulgarian_East 10.55809580 Greek_Kos 10.55739745 Greek_Izmir 10.54763654 Greek_Cypriot 10.54033631 Turk_Cyprus 10.51109699 Nusayri_Turkey 10.49302208 Armenian_West 10.46789417 Greek_Foca 10.45904213 Bulgarian_Thrace 10.45210899 Greek_Pontus 10.44367869 Assyrian_West 10.40876985 Assyrian_South 10.39404471 Assyrian_NorthCode:Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓ A: Serb B: Bulgarian_West C: ↴ 7.33019104 Greek_Izmir 7.31483276 Greek_Foca 7.30895235 Greek_Crete 7.30311754 Greek_Cappadocia 7.30193114 Greek_Kos 7.28507722 Greek_Cypriot 7.27946354 Bulgarian_Thrace 7.27147772 Greek_Macedonia 7.26584223 Bulgarian_Central 7.25069708 Bulgarian_East 7.24008223 Greek_Peloponnese 7.23827498 Turk_Cyprus 7.23602371 Greek_Thessaloniki 7.22809603 Greek_Athens 7.21688322 Greek_Central
There is the same Levantine-Armenian shift on Gagauz, yet it is balanced with extra Greek-like admixture and extra CHG-admixture. This proves what we know from history; Gagauz absorbed other Christians who live as neighbors to them, Greeks mainly. Adopting Christianism resulted in a shift in Gagauz DNA, and "invader" admixtures are disappeared gradually, remained none today.
Code:Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓ A: Bulgarian_Northeast B: Gagauz C: ↴ 0.43257758 Greek_Pontus 0.42824381 Greek_Cappadocia 0.42544760 Turk_East_Black_Sea 0.42466071 Laz 0.42296551 Hemshin 0.41940634 Greek_Thessaloniki 0.41316232 Georgian_Adjara 0.41304979 Greek_Foca 0.41179651 Georgian_Imereti 0.41169431 Georgian_Mingrelian 0.40936988 Greek_Izmir 0.40754222 Georgian_Turkey 0.40583973 Georgian_Gurian 0.40151104 Greek_Athens 0.39964800 Greek_Peloponnese
While results are showing that, it is not likely to claim there is a pre-Ottoman Turkic admixture present among Bulgarians; and already had absorbed among Gagauz's.
The question awaits: While we see that pre-Ottoman Turkic admixture among Romanians, while there is none in current Bulgarian borders?
Turkish archives explain the situation like this:
Although adapting Christianism fastened the assimilation, we still see some Romanian/Moldovan individuals who carry a legible amount of Turkic admixture. While this was the case in the North, it is not likely that they were just disappeared in the South. Considering the genetic data and historical records, the only sensible option is they are absorbed by Balkan Turks.Another group active on the Northeast Bulgarian Turks is the Ottomans. Over time, these three groups(Pechenek/Cuman, Seljuk colonization under Sari Saltuk, Ottomans) have merged and the Turks, who settled in the region before the Ottoman Empire, gradually accepted Islam. It can even be said that the Turks who settled here before the Ottomans facilitated the spread of Islam in this region.
Therewithal Deliorman Turks models better with Gagauz rather than Bulgarian_Northeast, suggest Islamisation of them and mixing with newly comer Turks that will be known as Balkan Turks afterward.
Code:Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓ A: MD_Gagauz B: Turk_Deliorman C: ↴ 4.98816898 Turkmen_TKM 4.92523105 Turkmen_Uzbekistan 4.91457901 Turkmen_Afghanistan 4.88640638 Uzbeks 4.87181550 Uzbek 4.69576707 Uyghur 4.68940205 Hazara 4.61262795 Karakalpak 4.58070621 Crimean_Tatar_Steppe 4.51942724 Nogai_Astrakhan 4.48250581 Kyrgyz 4.46536754 Kazakh 4.43468050 Nogai 4.43164176 Turkmen 4.41652100 Kyrgyz_Bishkek
Code:Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓ A: Bulgarian_Northeast B: Turk_Deliorman C: ↴ 5.83034599 Turkmen_TKM 5.78024991 Turkmen_Uzbekistan 5.77488374 Uzbek 5.76090343 Turkmen_Afghanistan 5.71393754 Uzbeks 5.57895975 Hazara 5.52375031 Uyghur 5.33194515 Karakalpak 5.26922250 Turkmen 5.25645755 Crimean_Tatar_Steppe 5.25305883 Nogai_Astrakhan 5.22472128 Turkmen_Iran 5.19003569 Tajik_Balkh 5.17477239 Kyrgyz 5.15592951 Tajik_Tajikistan
qpAdm: Bulgarian_1.DG= 77 - Kimak.SG= 23, p= 0.36, se= 0.31.
Y: Q-L330 > Q-YP771 > Q-BZ180 > Q-F16045* (F15008*) --> Baikal N, Altai MLBA, Aldy-Bel, Pazyryk, Hun.
MT: K1a --> Iron Gates, Starcevo, Bulgaria N, Bulgaria CA, Bulgaria BA.
But did not the Pechenegs stay and returned to Balkan because of that they were Christians? How they became Muslims?
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I did not get the question exactly. Pechenegs were Tengrist, then converted into Christianity, shortly after then Turks arrived. Unlike Cumans who settled in masses to specific regions, Pechenegs were distributed to all over Byzantine regions, from Eastern Anatolia to Macedonia and some were among Cumans as well. You should be familiar with Turks who claim of Pecheneg origin, too.
There is a Greek Q-L332 individual who is from Balikesir, Erdek, and matches distantly(29/37) with a Hungarian from Nograd. This pretty much draws the image of the situation.
On the other hand, Islamization happens through Sarı Saltuk's colonization.
Last edited by Kaspias; 11-09-2020 at 05:30 PM.
qpAdm: Bulgarian_1.DG= 77 - Kimak.SG= 23, p= 0.36, se= 0.31.
Y: Q-L330 > Q-YP771 > Q-BZ180 > Q-F16045* (F15008*) --> Baikal N, Altai MLBA, Aldy-Bel, Pazyryk, Hun.
MT: K1a --> Iron Gates, Starcevo, Bulgaria N, Bulgaria CA, Bulgaria BA.
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